Development is more important than top rated classes

[NighthawkVol]

Recruiting rankings are right way more than they are wrong.

Then why has Tennessee struggled so much recently? Why has Kentucky been better? Why did Clemson win a NC before landing a top 5 class? Why was Bill Snyder Uber-successful at KState while recruiting classes not ranked in the top 30-50?

Recruiting rankings are often right because they rank players higher that are offered by/sign with top programs. So it’s a matter of the tail wagging the dog.

 

[Volatility]

Neither Butch, or Pruitt installed a legitimate offensive system in which our players could learn and develop from year to year and be competitive. Other teams with lesser talent have been able to beat us because of this. CH seems to be installing a true system on both sides of the ball that utilizes our player’s strengths. We’ll see if this translates into wins come September.

Yeah, Pruitt seemed hellbent on trying to be Alabama circa 2009 with three yards and a cloud of dust. I still have no idea what Butch was trying to run, it always looked like a slow developing running play.

 

[wmcovol]

We know what highly rated recruits with low work ethic & sorry ass coaching accomplishes

 

[KennyMayne]

I don't buy into the "star" rating systems the recruiting websites use. Butch proved that pressure form college coaches can artificially sway those ratings. That said, to compete for SEC titles, there is a fairly high floor for the kids recruited, regardless of stars, and development must happen. You have to have multiple pros in each position group to win the SEC, period. They may come in almost pro ready (Jamal Lewis) or they might develop into pros (Josh Palmer), but an SEC program has to have 5-6 pros in each class.

 

[GoodlettsvilleVol]

especially against UGA. He single handedly shot last year's team through the head with his 2nd half against the dawgs.

I temper my criticism of Guarantano with the fact that he was "coached" by Chris Weinke.

 

[sanefan]

Then why has Tennessee struggled so much recently? Why has Kentucky been better? Why did Clemson win a NC before landing a top 5 class? Why was Bill Snyder Uber-successful at KState while recruiting classes not ranked in the top 30-50?

Recruiting rankings are often right because they rank players higher that are offered by/sign with top programs. So it’s a matter of the tail wagging the dog.

Probably because people confuse on-field results with recruiting class rankings.

I don't think anyone thinks coaching does not matter. That is why KY can be better than UT and KSU can be better than a recruiting class rank.

Also, teams can catch lightning in one year but you are not going to convince me that Clemson would have SUSTAINED championship caliber teams without high quality recruiting classes.

Lastly, I think it is incorrect to think a coach would have the exact same on-field results if his players were the 30th rank class versus the 8th ranked class. To that note, if KY had UT classes, they would have won more games. They still would lose to Alabama, Clemson, OSU.

 

[sjt18]

I temper my criticism of Guarantano with the fact that he was "coached" by Chris Weinke.

He had several coaches and none could fix his inability to process information quickly and be decisive.

 

[sjt18]

Recruiting rankings are right way more than they are wrong.

Depends on what you mean by "right". If you use the NFL draft as a measure then they're right on a pretty high % of 5* players. I want to say that drops to like 30% or 40% of 4* players. But the last time I checked 4/5* players only made up about half the draft.

So if your standard is how many they miss giving high ratings... they aren't very accurate.

If you had a coach who was good at finding talent and great at developing it... you could rival Bama on the field and on draft day without ever signing a 4/5* player. No one has been that good... yet.

But then again, to @GregAmsler 's point... if a coach did that the recruiting sites would start bumping the guys they pursued.

 

[norrislakevol]

You absolutely MUST have both. You MUST have at least two out of 4 classes that rank in the top 10 in recruiting rankings. Look it up if you don't believe me, and name all the teams since 1998 that have not had that and consistently recruit outside the top 15 and still win national titles.....I'll wait.....yeah, that's what I thought. And of course.....you MUST have development. You cannot have just head hunters on your staff that can reel in top talent and then never develop the players properly.

If you can't average top 15 or better classes with at least 2 of those classes in a 4 year period being top 10 classes then you cannot win a national title.
If you cannot develop your talent then you cannot win a national title.
It's that simple.

 

[sanefan]

...If you had a coach who was good at finding talent and great at developing it... you could rival Bama on the field and on draft day without ever signing a 4/5* player. No one has been that good... yet...

This is true!

You can also become a multimillionaire spending $1 per week. All you have to do is pick the correct lottery numbers. I'm not a millionaire...yet.

 

[NighthawkVol]

Recruiting rankings are right way more than they are wrong.

Then why has Tennessee struggled so much recently? Why has Kentucky been better? Why did Clemson win a NC before landing a top 5 class? Why was Bill Snyder Uber-successful at KState while recruiting classes not ranked in the top 30-50?

Recruiting rankings are often right because they rank players higher that are offered by/sign with top programs. So it’s a matter of the tail wagging the dog.

 

[a vol n tears]

Tennessee has 1 National title in the last 53 years and that was more than 20 years ago. I state this for those only thinking recruits to win the championship. I agree that is the ultimate goal but it is a step by step goal. Win some unexpected games, win the East, then get the players to compete for the Conference championship. I love college football but for many fans it is the playoffs or nothing. I remember being excited when the Vols went 8 - 2 and went to a good bowl. Wins and good recruiters will get the better players.

 

[a vol n tears]

Saban’s dynasty has ruined fans realistic expectations and enjoyment of their teams seasons. Tennessee’s career winning percentage is about 70% !!!!!! That is a 100 year data fact.

 

[SaintLouisVol]

A quality coaching staff with a good scheme should be able to take talent similar to what Tennessee has attracted over the past 7-8 years and regularly win 8-9 games and look competitive in most losses. If/When the coaching staff demonstrates that they can, for the most part, maximize the talent they are getting, then they will begin to attract better talent, especially if they are putting guys in the NFL. They aren't going to roll out of bed and sign a top five class. Potential recruits have to see the results first.

 

[SaintLouisVol]

Saban’s dynasty has ruined fans realistic expectations and enjoyment of their teams seasons. Tennessee’s career winning percentage is about 70% !!!!!! That is a 100 year data fact.

A fan who is120 years old might appreciate that fact more. But, considering those graduating from UT this year have never seen a legit competitor in their lifetime, I don't think it helps a lot.

As far as expectations, while some fans may be unrealistic, I don't believe most are. Tennessee has everything in place off the field to be regularly compete at the highest level. Most people understand that Florida, UGa, Alabama, Auburn, TA&M and LSU do as well. You aren't going to beat them every year. But if you are in it with them every year, you come out on top now and again.

 

[GoodlettsvilleVol]

I don't understand that with our excellent facilities we don't recruit better.

 

[DERELICK_MY_VOLS]

Butch took stars.. Pruitt developed.. they both sucked

Pruitt developed quitting, bad attitudes, underachieving, a divided locker room, and loser mentalities.

 

[sjt18]

This is true!

You can also become a multimillionaire spending $1 per week. All you have to do is pick the correct lottery numbers. I'm not a millionaire...yet.

Nothing like the lottery. A lot more like the folks who bought Apple stock in the 80's and held on to it... or better yet the line workers who invested in Winnebago.

The Little Town That Could: The Winnebago Story - RV LIFE

It doesn't take more "luck" to do what I'm talking about... just an incredible amount of skill. Think Gary Pinkel on steroids.

 

[sjt18]

I don't understand that with our excellent facilities we don't recruit better.

The reason UT has continued to be in the top 20 in recruiting is things not related to football. That's why the program is and always has been much closer to success than many think. Add quality coaching that produces teams that play to their potential to the fanbase, educational support/resources, location, facilities, student body, etc... and UT can turn it around fairly quickly. As truly bad as Jones was as a "football coach"... he had UT at the cusp of success in just two years on sheer talent.

Lots of people get discouraged at coaching changes and all the chatter. But it is like Edison said... we've just found one more way that didn't work. There WILL come a point as long as none of those attractive things above change when UT will find "the guy". Not only that... "the guy" will catch a tail wind of some sort. Jones got that break with a couple of recruiting classes made up of UT homers like Hurd and legacies- he was just an awful coach and empty suit. That break could be something like a big upset win or UT suddenly looking competitive against the top tier teams. Just needs to be something that creates momentum for a coach talented enough to build on it.

 

[Jmmayberry21]

This is a novel idea, both matter! You have to get talent, and you have get that talent to improve. Its a lot like the basketball team, barns coached up guys and got them drafted. This allowed him to recruit better players, they will get drafted which leads to the cycle continuing up and up. CH is going to have to coach guys up which will lead to better talent, if those guys improve we get better talent, and so on and on. I believe that elite programs require both.

 

[UGADawg4Life]

Ok, so lets use Georgia as a point. They had a school record 9 players drafted this 2021 cycle. However, this program cannot seem to get to the level production-wise of a consistent top 3 program nationally....at least thats what many or even most Ga. fans would say. So clearly Kirby is recruiting at a very, very high level. But are these Georgia players being "developed" and draft-able and not being coached? To me, it actually seems to be necessary to have all three......recruit at a reasonably high level, develop your players to be close to the best they can be in college, and coach them to be a part of a philosophy or team and win. That seems about right to me.

In Kirby's 4 seasons as recruiting HC, he's finished 2nd, 7th, 4th & 7th respectively. Dabo was NR, 22nd, 11th, & 8th. Saban was 7th, 2nd, 2nd, & 14th (LSU, not counting his earlier years). Recruiting rankings are a fair barometer of what kind of talent programs are getting, but it's not an exact science. Players sometimes don't live up to expectations, transfer, get hurt, etc. Kirby's recruited top 10 and finished top 10 every year he's played players he recruited. He'll be fine.

 

[allen phillips]

Ok, so lets use Georgia as a point. They had a school record 9 players drafted this 2021 cycle. However, this program cannot seem to get to the level production-wise of a consistent top 3 program nationally....at least thats what many or even most Ga. fans would say. So clearly Kirby is recruiting at a very, very high level. But are these Georgia players being "developed" and draft-able and not being coached? To me, it actually seems to be necessary to have all three......recruit at a reasonably high level, develop your players to be close to the best they can be in college, and coach them to be a part of a philosophy or team and win. That seems about right to me.

A great chef can make a very good meal shopping at Sav-A-Lot. That same chef can make an extraordinary meal shopping at Whole Foods.

Similar to cruitin'. Start with better players and develop them usually ends with a better product.

great analogy.

 

[allen phillips]

A) The point of mentioning Ekeler's comments was that the way we quantify "top tier" talent is flawed. His point is that, whether you sign the 30th ranked class or the 8th ranked class, the raw talent is roughly the same...unless you get a Trevor Lawrence or Leonard Fournette type.

B) You're right....it's not a coincidence that the top teams have top rated classes. When prospects get a bump because they're offered by those schools, then those schools' classes are inevitably going to be ranked higher.

I do think there may be a process (I'll reference Clemson again). Take lower ranked guys and develop them, then you'll start to sign higher ranked guys. It sorta seemed like Johnny Majors took that route at Tennessee.

I think Rick Barnes is another good example.

 

[LittleVol]

Meh...
I don't know.
Natural God-given talent is always number one in my book.
Ex.
I'll certainly date the average looking woman that keeps in great shape, works hard and has a wonderful attitude.

But the bombshell goddess who may not like to cook very often is still going to be what I really want.
Being true to what I want is going to make me a stronger product.

Yeah let's sign some dual-threat QBs that run 4.6 and turn them into WR. Sure. Gamers game.
It doesn't mean that is more important than signing 4.2 Speed Randy Moss bad attitude and all.

 

[sanefan]

Nothing like the lottery. A lot more like the folks who bought Apple stock in the 80's and held on to it... or better yet the line workers who invested in Winnebago.

The Little Town That Could: The Winnebago Story - RV LIFE

It doesn't take more "luck" to do what I'm talking about... just an incredible amount of skill. Think Gary Pinkel on steroids.

We both agree it is possible. I hope we both agree it is highly unlikely. You can attribute these highly unlikely outcomes to skill if you prefer. Either way, I will be not believe a coach can do this until I see it.