Debord needs to go

#201
#201
photovol said:
Correct, Bama had better athletes and more muscle and it wasn't even close
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and even against FL, which i think may be Dobb's most heroic performance, he was getting lit up on blitz's.....fortunately he was getting the ball out to the WR's before getting destroyed. but he took some big hits in that game too.

the o line has been an issue since game 1. and while there's been modicum's of improvement along the way, the've not been consistent, and can't stay healthy.
 
#202
#202
sjt18 said:
You might as well say Butch Jones needs to go.

Go back and look at what Debord did as OC in the past. It was NOT the system he's running now. That is Jones' system being run Jones' way.

The bigger issue is the OL. Jones calls it a "developmental" position. I was here when many were dissing Stone, Fulton, James, etc.... They were supposedly "Dooley's guys" who just couldn't or wouldn't learn and play Jones' system.... and they weren't that talented any way. You know, being tainted by Dooley and all. Well. After 4 years, that is STILL by far the best OL Jones has fielded... and it ain't close.... and doesn't really appear to be progressing much if at all.

Bama pushed UT's OL around WORSE than they do FCS opponents on homecoming.

You can try to deflect blame from Jones all you like but he is responsible. He directs or approves both development and scheme.... and chooses the people who do it.
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sjt18

How can people not see these things? Fire Debord ? How about seed absolute control to Debord of the offense ...and fordbid Butch to be involved. This is Butchs system. Debord is a power I , play action , wear em down guy. Would love to see it. He is force to run this dumpster fire of an offense

The offensive line is a product of this system. They zone block , letting defenders come to them in their zone. They do this mush blocking on run plays to . They dont attack or fire off on defenders , ever. Its a terrible concept to use every down .
 
#205
#205
majic73 said:
sjt18

How can people not see these things? Fire Debord ? How about seed absolute control to Debord of the offense ...and fordbid Butch to be involved. This is Butchs system. Debord is a power I , play action , wear em down guy. Would love to see it. He is force to run this dumpster fire of an offense

The offensive line is a product of this system. They zone block , letting defenders come to them in their zone. They do this mush blocking on run plays to . They dont attack or fire off on defenders , ever. Its a terrible concept to use every down .
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lol. while i agree that Saturday's performance offensively wasn't good, nor was it what i expected to see....

this offense is on pace to set TN season records this year.

again, i think some people just need to acknowledge, that maybe just maybe, our ineffectiveness across the board, may have had a little something to do with the competition, and not just us bumbling around on the sidelines like we've never seen a football before.:eek:lol:
 
#206
#206
jakez4ut said:
lol. while i agree that Saturday's performance offensively wasn't good, nor was it what i expected to see....

this offense is on pace to set TN season records this year.

again, i think some people just need to acknowledge, that maybe just maybe, our ineffectiveness across the board, may have had a little something to do with the competition, and not just us bumbling around on the sidelines like we've never seen a football before.:eek:lol:
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That is not my point at all. Point 1 is this is Butch's offense , not Debords. Debord's offense is a classical power running game.

Point 2 is that this offense is a 'big play' offense that is unable to maintain drives. It can at times do the extraordinary , but routinely fails to do the ordinary.

I would rather have an offense that can do both ...such as Alabama's. Our offense has failed for 1 half of every game we have played , and failed for the whole Alabama game.

Dobbs is an ineffective intermediate passer..which clogs the run games. Both lead to drive stalling situations. This leaves open backside runs by the QB and the deep ball. Most top ten teams are able to stop both . The blocking scheme of allowing defenders to come into your zone or impeding or redirecting on pass and run plays does not work against elite opposition. I think a classical attacking blocking scheme would improve this offense . Furthermore , the way this spread is administered , there are routinely not enough blockers in to protect the QB.

If you want to play top ten teams and maintain a consistent ability to drive the ball and not rely on the big splash play ...these things will have to change. Otherwise you only hope in the current SEC is 2nd place and a top 20 ranking.

Why we are attempting to run a layered west coast passing scheme with an ineffective inaccurate QB I will never know. When we drop behind at the half we attempt to engage JDs incredible running abilities to play catch up. How about coming into the game using those abilities and build the inside running game from there . How about simplifying the passing game to suit his abilities and engage a real blocking scheme to improve pass protection and the running game . I think this group could control the ball , the clock , and win games by the half.

Imagine if Tebow and Vince Young were put in similar situations ...we would have already forgotten them
 
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#207
#207
LWSVOL said:
10-2 and someone needs to fall??

He will have to hire GAs because why would anyone come to place that fires coaches off 10-2 record??
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Id agree from a head coach standpoint but 10-2 doesn't have to mean every position coach and coordinator is doing their job either.

UT has an OL problem and it has been that way for years. The best OL Jones has had at UT is the one Dooley left him. I think they are short on talent in some of the spots but there is no reason for that OL to be that inept for that long. That was the opinion of a former OL at UT.
 
#208
#208
#FireDeBord

And this is not just because of the Bama game. There is most certainly a problem with the offensive scheming and playcalling. Why have we fallen behind in every game but one so far this season? Because the offense can't get anything going for the majority of the game.

Whether its DeBord or Butch, DeBord needs to go. If it's his offense, he needs to go. If he's simply a yes man for Butch, he needs to go. Then Butch needs to make a great OC hire and let them run their own offense.

Either way, something's gotta change with the offense.
 
#209
#209
BeecherVol said:
Id agree from a head coach standpoint but 10-2 doesn't have to mean every position coach and coordinator is doing their job either.

UT has an OL problem and it has been that way for years. The best OL Jones has had at UT is the one Dooley left him. I think they are short on talent in some of the spots but there is no reason for that OL to be that inept for that long. That was the opinion of a former OL at UT.
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its the scheme . This passive zone system they use makes coaching and players look terrible. Hire the best coach on the planet and give him this scheme ...he will fail. Terrible scheme . An attacking , power scheme is needed.
 
#210
#210
If DeBord tried to push the ball downfield on deep throws, he would have got the rest of the hair knocked off of Josh Dobbs.
 
#211
#211
majic73 said:
That is not my point at all. Point 1 is this is Butch's offense , not Debords. Debord's offense is a classical power running game.

Point 2 is that this offense is a 'big play' offense that is unable to maintain drives. It can at times do the extraordinary , but routinely fails to do the ordinary.

I would rather have an offense that can do both ...such as Alabama's. Our offense has failed for 1 half of every game we have played , and failed for the whole Alabama game.

Dobbs is an ineffective intermediate passer..which clogs the run games. Both lead to drive stalling situations. This leaves open backside runs by the QB and the deep ball. Most top ten teams are able to stop both . The blocking scheme of allowing defenders to come into your zone or impeding or redirecting on pass and run plays does not work against elite opposition. I think a classical attacking blocking scheme would improve this offense . Furthermore , the way this spread is administered , there are routinely not enough blockers in to protect the QB.

If you want to play top ten teams and maintain a consistent ability to drive the ball and not rely on the big splash play ...these things will have to change. Otherwise you only hope in the current SEC is 2nd place and a top 20 ranking.
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i see where you're coming from, and i do agree that our offense has not been one to put together a 5-7 minute drive all that often. that said, part of that is we haven't had to at times. we have hit big plays, and negated the need for multi play drives, that eat clock.

2nd, we've had way too many mistakes early in ball games that killed drives...not going to rehash, we've all seen them.

3rd...and this is where i do fault the play calling, our 1st down offense is fairly ineffective. we're predictable on 1st down. i told my father in law Saturday...."i think besides 1st and 10, 2nd and 8 may be the most common down and distance we face".

so i don't blindly defend here. i do, though, believe that we have been very productive offensively overall (hence record pace), and more than anything, Alabama's defense had a lot more to do with stopping us, than it did us, stopping us.:thumbsup:
 
#212
#212
LostVol55 said:
If DeBord tried to push the ball downfield on deep throws, he would have got the rest of the hair knocked off of Josh Dobbs.
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lol...yes, i agree. i think some of the play calling you saw in the late 1st qtr, in to the 2nd qtr was a reaction to just how fast they were getting in the backfield.

it's like one of those things you know, but you really don't know until you see it, and then it's too late. it was like they took 2-3 possessions off to see what else they could dial up....we had no answer for that pass rush. and that's directly related to the O line not being able to create any creases for the run game. and we proved you can't run wide on them.

literally no where to run.
 
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#213
#213
majic73 said:
its the scheme . This passive zone system they use makes coaching and players look terrible. Hire the best coach on the planet and give him this scheme ...he will fail. Terrible scheme . An attacking , power scheme is needed.
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From some Ive talked to that know a lot more about that than me, they believe scheme is an issue. But they feel that is just part of it.
 
#214
#214
BeecherVol said:
From some Ive talked to that know a lot more about that than me, they believe scheme is an issue. But they feel that is just part of it.
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this is more of where i am on it too.

would i like to see a big plow of an O line and full back for Hurd, and big tall WR's outside and a guy drop back, stand tall and deliver....

yes. yes i would.

but you still need the personnel up front to make that work too.
 
#215
#215
InVOLuntary said:
Who's lashing out? DeBord is a weak link on this team as far as coaches go. I do support this team. I believe they deserve better.
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I thought the weak link was 2 freshmen OTs against the best pass rush Saban has ever had?

Get real. Crap ton of yards the previous 3 weeks. All of a sudden we send the scout team against the #1 team and DeBord sucks?
 
#216
#216
jakez4ut said:
this is more of where i am on it too.

would i like to see a big plow of an O line and full back for Hurd, and big tall WR's outside and a guy drop back, stand tall and deliver....

yes. yes i would.

but you still need the personnel up front to make that work too.
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Its a multi faceted problem for sure. Bottom line, there is no reason for it to be like that 4 years in.
 
#217
#217
BeecherVol said:
Its a multi faceted problem for sure. Bottom line, there is no reason for it to be like that 4 years in.
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eh, i think we've slayed all the realistic dragons we were meant to slay. i didn't think we'd beat Bama fully healthy. i sure didn't headed in to the game as undermanned as we were.
 
#219
#219
jakez4ut said:
eh, i think we've slayed all the realistic dragons we were meant to slay. i didn't think we'd beat Bama fully healthy. i sure didn't headed in to the game as undermanned as we were.
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I agree with you there.

Like I have been saying though. Technical issues with this scheme are why we have gotten morbidly behind in all but one game that we have played this year ...and had to mount comebacks and in the case of Alabama ...failed to make a comeback. At Tamu , we died by the sword. The last big play that we needed was not there Things that can be done NOW to make this offense more effective:

Simplify the pass tree , JDs cannot throw intermediate and he cannot execute a layered west coast

JDs running from the start of the game from multiple formations

Keep enough blockers in to match the defense.

Fix the blocking scheme. You can make the blockers an attacking zone that fire out aggressively rather than this passive pass block on every down style. Institute run blocking

Bring back power running . This can be done from the spread with the use of an H back.


This whole style is not my preference ...but it can be made more consistent and drive oriented and less big play dependent
 
#220
#220
We've played 3 of the top 4 defenses in the SEC and the number 2 defense in the ACC...not sure if those guys are where they are because they played us or if they are actually good...

But our remaining schedule includes two middle of the pack and two of the worst defensive teams in the SEC so I would expect our year end stats to be a bit better than they are now...how would this offense look with an accurate downfield passer and a decent OL?
 
#221
#221
majic73 said:
I agree with you there.

Like I have been saying though. Technical issues with this scheme are why we have gotten morbidly behind in all but one game that we have played this year ...and had to mount comebacks and in the case of Alabama ...failed to make a comeback. At Tamu , we died by the sword. The last big play that we needed was not there Things that can be done NOW to make this offense more effective:

Simplify the pass tree , JDs cannot throw intermediate and he cannot execute a layered west coast

JDs running from the start of the game from multiple formations

Keep enough blockers in to match the defense.

Fix the blocking scheme. You can make the blockers an attacking zone that fire out aggressively rather than this passive pass block on every down style. Institute run blocking

Bring back power running . This can be done from the spread with the use of an H back.


This whole style is not my preference ...but it can be made more consistent and drive oriented and less big play dependent
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a lot i agree with here, especially the lead blocker for Hurd. a lot of this scheme works well if you have the speed to beat defenders to a spot. sometimes we do, sometimes we don't. we dont' always set the edge particularly well when running wide.

anyway, long story short, this offensive scheme isn't my cup of tea either, but it has worked for the most part, and i still say had we not had some dumb drops and fumbles early in games, and kept drives going....things look a lot different. we've seen this offense light up good defenses. it just couldn't against Bama's. it worked like a champ against UF and aTm, and VT.

but the "scheme itself" isn't the reason we lost. that's all i'm getting at.
 
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#222
#222
Sarms58 said:
We've played 3 of the top 4 defenses in the SEC and the number 2 defense in the ACC...not sure if those guys are where they are because they played us or if they are actually good...

But our remaining schedule includes two middle of the pack and two of the worst defensive teams in the SEC so I would expect our year end stats to be a bit better than they are now...how would this offense look with an accurate downfield passer and a decent OL?
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better. it'd look better today if we didn't have as many mishaps in the 1st half of pretty much all the previous games. that's not really the case in the Bama game....but all previous games....turnovers, drops and penalties killed drives early on...we've all seen it and discussed it plenty.
 
#223
#223
jakez4ut said:
eh, i think we've slayed all the realistic dragons we were meant to slay. i didn't think we'd beat Bama fully healthy. i sure didn't headed in to the game as undermanned as we were.
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I agree. This problem didn't just show up this week.
 
#224
#224
BeecherVol said:
I agree. This problem didn't just show up this week.
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no, it didn't. were we fortunate we didn't have it show up as an L earlier in the season? yep. am i going to apologize? nope. conversation on CBJ not withstanding, after the last decade of foul ups, coaching changes, o fer's against our rivals and just plain bad football, i am happy to be on the winning side of a few bounces going our way, and i wouldn't trade the FL or GA games for anything.

there's still plenty of issues. but there's still reason to feel good about this season, and what it can still bring.
 
#225
#225
jakez4ut said:
a lot i agree with here, especially the lead blocker for Hurd. a lot of this scheme works well if you have the speed to beat defenders to a spot. sometimes we do, sometimes we don't. we dont' always set the edge particularly well when running wide.

anyway, long story short, this offensive scheme isn't my cup of tea either, but it has worked for the most part, and i still say had we not had some dumb drops and fumbles early in games, and kept drives going....things look a lot different. we've seen this offense light up good defenses. it just couldn't against Bama's. it worked like a champ against UF and aTm, and VT.

but the "scheme itself" isn't the reason we lost. that's all i'm getting at.
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Agree with all you have said. turnovers , execution , coaching have all had an impact. The team has done great in most situations

My comments are not meant to be an indictment of the coaches , team. I think that with limited practice time ( compared to the NFL ) what looked good on paper in the preseason may not have panned out as planned and with no time to fix it and evolving injury issues you cant expect perfection.

How the staff uses this bye week and the steps they take to adapt to the injury crises and the schematic corrections is what I am looking for. JDs ineffective intermediate passing ability is the key . Whats the work around ? I think the offense functions perfectly in all facets if this is over come.

Finally, when implementing your long range scheme with all things you have to scheme and recruit to beat the best. Is this scheme ultimately an Alabama killer ? Remains to be seen
 
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