Dave Hart...the consumate Bean Counter

[butchna]

Kind of like the contracts he worked with Sal Sunseri and some of Dooley's staff. I feel protected.

Just KEEP repeating a past mistake...so's you can get the warm fuzzies? :crazy:

 

[SeniorDrill]

And that is THE point. With Cheek and Hart in charge, the bad hires, the poor management of the programs leads to down and down and down years on the Hill. That in turn kills interest, giving and fannies in the seats. You have 2 individuals literally killing this program.

Dave Hart?? According to SportsSource these are the things that depleted the reserve fund. I find it a stretch to blame any one of them on Dave Hart!
Buyouts for coaches, AD
New facilities (Pratt)
Renovations (TBA, Neyland)
Debt service on major projects
Annual gift back to UT
Amusement tax (Knoxville)
Fewer tickets sold
Fewer donations

 

[InVOLuntary]

All this reserve talk has me thinking.... Hart's been here what.. three years now? He's fired numerous people in the AD, combined the men's and women's athletics, and hired two coaches at about the lowest levels possible. Why isn't the reserve growing?

 

[InVOLuntary]

Dave Hart?? According to SportsSource these are the things that depleted the reserve fund. I find it a stretch to blame any one of them on Dave Hart!
Buyouts for coaches, AD
New facilities (Pratt)
Renovations (TBA, Neyland)
Debt service on major projects
Annual gift back to UT
Amusement tax (Knoxville)
Fewer tickets sold
Fewer donations

Honest question.... do you think the reduced donations and tickets sold might have something to do with the AD hiring low level coaches? This administration takes the loyalty of the UT fan base for granted and it's starting to hit home for many, including myself.

 

[K-town Vol Fan]

Honest question.... do you think the reduced donations and tickets sold might have something to do with the AD hiring low level coaches? This administration takes the loyalty of the UT fan base for granted and it's starting to hit home for many, including myself.

I think it has more to do with what Dooley did and Martin's 2.8 years of mediocrity. Not a good time for UT athletics.

 

[therealitytheory]

The low reserve has more to do with the multi million dollar transfer from UTAD to academics that Jimmy Cheek extracted for several years than it does with buyouts. It's been temporarily suspended but I'm sure it will quietly resume as soon as they think no body is looking. The other issue is that ticket sales and donations tend to go down when football is not doing well.

Incorrect. The athletic department has been turning monies over to campus academics since the 80's. Cheek came to UT in 2009. AD payments to academics were suspended in 2012.

Hate whoever you want, but don't make ****e up like that.

 

[82_VOL_83]

No matter how many times you rehash ignernt, it's still ignernt.

Ignore thread engage.

 

[JonGrudensAgent]

I thought this was a sports related message board, not economics 101.

 

[volroadwarrior]

I'm not that big of a fan of basketball, but Hart should now be given the added title of "Chief Bean Counter of the UT Athletics Dept." I read an article today, saying that one of the things that rubbed Coach Martin the wrong way, was the lowball figure the Dept would owe him if he was fired. Something like 14% of the remaining contract.

So, Martin may have had one foot out the door because of the fan reaction mid-season, but Hart made sure he got the other foot out, too...with his low-balling arse.

I like where Butch Jones is going with the Football program, but let's face it....Hart was never going to offer the upper echelon coaches what it would take to persuade them. He had a low to mid-level SEC budget in mind, and that's not to cut it.

He, like Hamilton, thought he could find a good one on the cheap. Sometimes you can, but the averages are against that occurring, most of the time. Lane Kiffin and Derek Dooley are very good examples of that policy backfiring.

You cannot tell me Marshall wouldn't have jumped at the offer of 2.2-2.5mill/yr and with contract terms that gave him some ironclad security over the next 3-4yrs, while rebuilding the roster.

Hart played the CCM thing brilliantly. He got rid of CCM's sorry arse and didn't have to pay him to show him the door. The court is still out on Tyndall, but flushing Cuonzo was a great stroke of either luck or cunning strategy.

 

[Wolfeman_Vol]

Incorrect. The athletic department has been turning monies over to campus academics since the 80's. Cheek came to UT in 2009. AD payments to academics were suspended in 2012.

Hate whoever you want, but don't make ****e up like that.

While the giving since the 80s is true, they were never drained and handcuffed like they have been since Cheek and the current board took over. They do not have the best interest of our once mighty athletic department at heart. Can't blame Hart if Cheek and the BoT won't let him spend the money or build the money that athletics earns. This problem is far more than the current AD...

 

[Darth_Shiveman]

Am I the only one who is glad Hart won't promise f*** loads of money to coaches he doesn't have complete faith in?

Giving coaches like Dooley huge buyouts is part of what got us up s*** creek in the first place. I'm glad he didn't overreact to Cuonzo's run and give him huge guarantees of money. I'm not sure he'd ever really earn it in the future (call it the CJ2k effect).

I wanted White to coach here, but I'm also glad Hart didn't cave in on a less than ideal buyout to a guy who only has 3 years of coaching experience and could either bust or see UT as a stepping stone.

I think Hart has a lot of balls for sticking to his guns and doing what his experience tells him is the right thing to do in our case. Time will tell if his approach pays off, but I'm glad to see him making calculated decisions instead of impulse ones.

 

[InVOLuntary]

I think it has more to do with what Dooley did and Martin's 2.8 years of mediocrity. Not a good time for UT athletics.

I agree but that's the risk you make when going cheap on the hire. So far I don't know of another coach that could have brought the energy and recruiting to UT football as Butch but if you're honest with yourself he's still has a lot to prove in the wins column. Same with all our hires over the last several years including this one. A lot of UT fans have the perception that we have everything we need to succeed and compete at the highest levels in both football and basketball with the exception of coaching. The UT administration's philosophy seems to be to keep rolling the dice until we hit on a winner. This on the front end does keep the cost down but to what extent does it affect revenue?

 

[Advol]

Dave Hart?? According to SportsSource these are the things that depleted the reserve fund. I find it a stretch to blame any one of them on Dave Hart!
Buyouts for coaches, AD
New facilities (Pratt)
Renovations (TBA, Neyland)
Debt service on major projects
Annual gift back to UT
Amusement tax (Knoxville)
Fewer tickets sold
Fewer donations

BS = Programs, including this one has or HAD the Bank Full when Coaches are hired that incites the fan base and wins games!! You know, sells popcorn. How many laughed at Bammer with the money they first gave to Saban. Have you checked what that program has made since he has been there.
Sports at major universities is now a business more than ever. The same Presidents, Trustees, etc. that used to fight it......needs it now more that ever to generate enough Jack to support the entire Athletic Budget and have some left over for the school.
Coaching hires today are looked upon as investments. And like the market, some work, some don't. But between Hamilton and this group, that Giant Suxing sound is the fans enthusiasm, the donors giving and ticket sales going out the door.
Wake up and smell the Karma, a Coach left because of it and a Coach from freakin LaTEch turns you down. With this hire, I just bet the Ticket Season Sales are going through the roof.

 

[Darth_Shiveman]

I agree but that's the risk you make when going cheap on the hire. So far I don't know of another coach that could habe brought the energy and recruiting to UT football as Butch but if you're honest with yourself he's still has a lot to prove in the wins column. Same with all our hires over the last several years including this one. A lot of UT fans have the perception that we have everything ee need to succeed and compete at the highest levels in both football and basketball with the exception of coaching. The UT administration's philosophy seems to be to keep rolling the dice until we hit on a winner. This on the front end does keep the cost down but to what extent does it affect revenue?

I'm not really sure how Hart's hires have been "dice rolls." Holly Warlick was an absolute no brainer. Butch wasn't our first choice, but Hart pursued him after being turned down by Charlie Strong (who everybody believed and still believes has his best coaching days ahead of him) and Oklahoma State's coach who is also proven.

He hasn't gone after the huge names that would cost more money than he has (Gruden, Marshall, etc), but is it really his fault that those guys aren't interested? Sure, it's easy or us to say that we should give Marshall 3 million per year or Gruden 6 million per year, but the well being of our athletic department is in Hart's hands. It would be irresponsible to give make coaches who don't absolutely want to be coaching at Tennessee paid exorbitant amounts of money with contracts that favor themselves and not our athletic department.

Butch was a coach with a proven track record as a head coach who obviosuly had great personality and salesmanship and actually WANTED to coach at Tennessee. Tyndall seems to be in the same mold. Neither of them were our first choices, but honestly for being the 3rd or 4th guys on our list and having relatively modest paychecks, I'd say Hart is doing a pretty good job doing his due dilligence in his coaching searches.

 

[SouthFlorida_Vol]

BS = Programs, including this one has or HAD the Bank Full when Coaches are hired that incites the fan base and wins games!! You know, sells popcorn. How many laughed at Bammer with the money they first gave to Saban. Have you checked what that program has made since he has been there.
Sports at major universities is now a business more than ever. The same Presidents, Trustees, etc. that used to fight it......needs it now more that ever to generate enough Jack to support the entire Athletic Budget and have some left over for the school.
Coaching hires today are looked upon as investments. And like the market, some work, some don't. But between Hamilton and this group, that Giant Suxing sound is the fans enthusiasm, the donors giving and ticket sales going out the door.
Wake up and smell the Karma, a Coach left because of it and a Coach from freakin LaTEch turns you down. With this hire, I just bet the Ticket Season Sales are going through the roof.

you think fan enthusiasm on the hill is down? Then why were there over 60K people at the orange and white game? That really sounds like fans are turning away from the AD because of Hart acting like an adult and considering a budget when hiring people.

 

[LordVOLdemort]

Honest question.... do you think the reduced donations and tickets sold might have something to do with the AD hiring low level coaches? This administration takes the loyalty of the UT fan base for granted and it's starting to hit home for many, including myself.

Ummm, you do know that we had ADs before Dave Hart, right? I would hate to think that I am wasting my time with a complete DA...

Butch Jones, before today, is the only coach Dave Hart has hired (Edit: and Holly but did he really have a choice there?, he would have been accused of being anti-UT without allowing her to prove herself). Football attendance is on the rise. UT related gear sales are on the rise. There are more promotional things going on with the athletics programs than we have had in a long time (e.g. Battle at Bristol, Nike deal, smokey gray gear, updated O&W game format, more neutral site games). Ive seen more positive press about this program with one of Dave Hart's hires than I'd seen with the last 3 Hamilton hires.

And you have no idea what Tyndall will bring to the table yet. Ive heard he's a really good program salesman and great with the fans. If that's the case, we will see the same kind of growth and revitalization of our basketball program as we have our football program.

Take your Dave Hart hate agenda somewhere else. This guy is trying to get UT back where we expect it to be, on top!

 

[InVOLuntary]

Ummm, you do know that we had ADs before Dave Hart, right? I would hate to think that I am wasting my time with a complete DA...

Butch Jones, before today, is the only coach Dave Hart has hired (Edit: and Holly but did he really have a choice there?, he would have been accused of being anti-UT without allowing her to prove herself). Football attendance is on the rise. UT related gear sales are on the rise. There are more promotional things going on with the athletics programs than we have had in a long time (e.g. Battle at Bristol, Nike deal, smokey gray gear, updated O&W game format, more neutral site games). Ive seen more positive press about this program with one of Dave Hart's hires than I'd seen with the last 3 Hamilton hires.

And you have no idea what Tyndall will bring to the table yet. Ive heard he's a really good program salesman and great with the fans. If that's the case, we will see the same kind of growth and revitalization of our basketball program as we have our football program.

Take your Dave Hart hate agenda somewhere else. This guy is trying to get UT back where we expect it to be, on top!

You need to realize this has nothing to do with Tyndall or Hart for that matter. This reduced emphasis on athletics goes higher than that. Hart's hands are tied. Tyndall may be a great hire and I am excited to see what he brings. I think it's a substantial upgrade to Cuonzo. My point is despite our resources we still hire at the bargain basement. We pay less than many of our SEC brethren in both football and basketball. Vandy has even been paying more for both football and basketball. Again, I'm excited to see what Mr. Tyndall brings to the table but to suggest this is a great hire is very much an exaggeration.

 

[InVOLuntary]

I'm not really sure how Hart's hires have been "dice rolls." Holly Warlick was an absolute no brainer. Butch wasn't our first choice, but Hart pursued him after being turned down by Charlie Strong (who everybody believed and still believes has his best coaching days ahead of him) and Oklahoma State's coach who is also proven.

He hasn't gone after the huge names that would cost more money than he has (Gruden, Marshall, etc), but is it really his fault that those guys aren't interested? Sure, it's easy or us to say that we should give Marshall 3 million per year or Gruden 6 million per year, but the well being of our athletic department is in Hart's hands. It would be irresponsible to give make coaches who don't absolutely want to be coaching at Tennessee paid exorbitant amounts of money with contracts that favor themselves and not our athletic department.

Butch was a coach with a proven track record as a head coach who obviosuly had great personality and salesmanship and actually WANTED to coach at Tennessee. Tyndall seems to be in the same mold. Neither of them were our first choices, but honestly for being the 3rd or 4th guys on our list and having relatively modest paychecks, I'd say Hart is doing a pretty good job doing his due dilligence in his coaching searches.

Again, this isn't an indictment on Hart. He has what resources he's been given to work with. Hiring on the cheap is a Tennessee tradition and it goes back before Dave Hart. If you'll look at the downturn of Tennessee athletics it coincides with removing the AD from under the university president and placing it under the UTK chancellor.

 

[LebanonVolunteer]

I'm not that big of a fan of basketball, but Hart should now be given the added title of "Chief Bean Counter of the UT Athletics Dept." I read an article today, saying that one of the things that rubbed Coach Martin the wrong way, was the lowball figure the Dept would owe him if he was fired. Something like 14% of the remaining contract.

So, Martin may have had one foot out the door because of the fan reaction mid-season, but Hart made sure he got the other foot out, too...with his low-balling arse.

I like where Butch Jones is going with the Football program, but let's face it....Hart was never going to offer the upper echelon coaches what it would take to persuade them. He had a low to mid-level SEC budget in mind, and that's not to cut it.

He, like Hamilton, thought he could find a good one on the cheap. Sometimes you can, but the averages are against that occurring, most of the time. Lane Kiffin and Derek Dooley are very good examples of that policy backfiring.

You cannot tell me Marshall wouldn't have jumped at the offer of 2.2-2.5mill/yr and with contract terms that gave him some ironclad security over the next 3-4yrs, while rebuilding the roster.

I am very confident in saying Marshall would have not even considered a move to Tennessee for 2.2-2.5. The man has said no to better jobs at over 2.5. IMO it would have taken an offer of 3 million+ to get a conversation started between Hart and Marshall about being UTs basketball coach. 3 million+ was just not going to happen.

 

[VolArmy74]

I am very confident in saying Marshall would have not even considered a move to Tennessee for 2.2-2.5. The man has said no to better jobs at over 2.5. IMO it would have taken an offer of 3 million+ to get a conversation started between Hart and Marshall about being UTs basketball coach. 3 million+ was just not going to happen.

Heck, after his bonuses, Marshall has made over 2 million per season the last two seasons according to his agent, who also stressed that Marshall turned down some good jobs last season and this season and that he really likes Wichita State.

 

[sport3500]

UT is trying to work on the amusement tax part of the equation, according to the Sportsource program.

 

[tm3]

Again, this isn't an indictment on Hart. He has what resources he's been given to work with. Hiring on the cheap is a Tennessee tradition and it goes back before Dave Hart. If you'll look at the downturn of Tennessee athletics it coincides with removing the AD from under the university president and placing it under the UTK chancellor.

it is an entrenched philosophy of jim haslam, he of the mega-million $$ donations, who does not want his alma mater perceived as "mercenary like bama" when it comes to hiring coaches.

"mercenary" was the then unheard of sum of $4mil/year for saban, who the bama president recently called the greatest investment in the history of the university.

check out bama's current financial reserves, and compare them to UT's, for a lesson on hiring proven winners versus rolling the dice in the bargain basement and recycling every 3-4 years.

 

[VolArmy74]

it is an entrenched philosophy of jim haslam, he of the mega-million $$ donations, who does not want his alma mater perceived as "mercenary like bama" when it comes to hiring coaches.

"mercenary" was the then unheard of sum of $4mil/year for saban, who the bama president recently called the greatest investment in the history of the university.

check out bama's current financial reserves, and compare them to UT's, for a lesson on hiring proven winners versus rolling the dice in the bargain basement and recycling every 3-4 years.

Saban was as much a matter of timing as anything. You almost never find coaches of his caliber looking for a job. Bama got lucky he was hating the NFL. Much the same way Memphis got lucky with Calipari, South Carolina with Spurrier and Louisville with Pitino.

 

[tntar heel]

I'm not that big of a fan of basketball, but Hart should now be given the added title of "Chief Bean Counter of the UT Athletics Dept." I read an article today, saying that one of the things that rubbed Coach Martin the wrong way, was the lowball figure the Dept would owe him if he was fired. Something like 14% of the remaining contract.

So, Martin may have had one foot out the door because of the fan reaction mid-season, but Hart made sure he got the other foot out, too...with his low-balling arse.

I like where Butch Jones is going with the Football program, but let's face it....Hart was never going to offer the upper echelon coaches what it would take to persuade them. He had a low to mid-level SEC budget in mind, and that's not to cut it.

He, like Hamilton, thought he could find a good one on the cheap. Sometimes you can, but the averages are against that occurring, most of the time. Lane Kiffin and Derek Dooley are very good examples of that policy backfiring.

You cannot tell me Marshall wouldn't have jumped at the offer of 2.2-2.5mill/yr and with contract terms that gave him some ironclad security over the next 3-4yrs, while rebuilding the roster.

Bean counters unite!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[tm3]

Saban was as much a matter of timing as anything. You almost never find coaches of his caliber looking for a job. Bama got lucky he was hating the NFL. Much the same way Memphis got lucky with Calipari, South Carolina with Spurrier and Louisville with Pitino.

maybe kind of like ben howland currently looking for a job ........ ?