D'Andre Payne

Must do a better job evaluating talent and managing players. What other program in the nation has mass defections from freshmen who do not start ? Helm and Hendrix played quite a bit and still wanted out. Jones needs to be a better manager of his players, that much is obvious.

If Hendrix played quite a bit, he made two tackles. Pretty sure we could get a new guy to do that.
 
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The freshmen need time in the program to develop. Given that time they will contribute meaningful minutes. An upperclassman who has been in the program and still is not playing is a different story. He is probably not going to give you any significant minutes. You can part ways with these players knowing it is not going to hurt you on the field.

I've already agreed that no one is happy they're leaving. I asked you a specific question in seeking clarity on your position, which you've still not answered.

So, it's OK to lose upper-classmen, but an indictment [of the coaching staff] to lose freshmen that are adjusting to college life, homesickness, college competition, and who are getting out with almost their entire college career ahead of them?

You want to compare transfers from other schools, but not upperclassmen--only freshmen--as if it's a greater failure by the staff.
 
I got tired of trying to dig through this thread to find my answer. Is Payne gone? If so, prove it?
 
I got tired of trying to dig through this thread to find my answer. Is Payne gone? If so, prove it?

Hubbs wrote today that Payne and Miller:

Don't look for Jaylen Miller or D'Andre Payne when the Vols reconvene. We're told Miller departed, upset with a lack of playing time, while Payne did not give specific reasons before electing to return to his D.C.-area roots.
 
Like I said, I'm sure everyone here wishes he'd stay. I'm sure the staff wishes he would stay. I'm not sure anyone is glad they're leaving.

But you wanted to compare the number of freshman transfers with other schools, as if the staff is failing in some way. And then you didn't answer my question. I asked:



I'm trying to get a fix on your rationale. You think that it is more of a failure for the staff that they have several freshmen wanting to transfer? If so, why is it worse coaching to lose freshmen in their first year, when they make less mature decisions, are still getting used to the life change in college, are more susceptible to homesickness, are still trying to recover from "big-pond" syndrome?

Again... I'm sure we'll all agree that we wish they would stay. And again... I'm sure the staff would prefer they stay. But what exactly would you have the staff do? And why is it a bigger failure to lose freshmen than to lose upperclassmen like Saban did on '11?

I didn't imply it had anything to do with the staff. I simply said it's not as normal to lose FR to attrition as so many say it is. Folks say this happens everywhere and Bama and Saban is often the example used. A majority of the players that Saban "cuts loose" are upperclassmen that have never seen the field and he realizes after 3 years aren't going to see the field. They're deadweight. True FR aren't deadweight, yet.
 
I didn't imply it had anything to do with the staff. I simply said it's not as normal to lose FR to attrition as so many say it is. Folks say this happens everywhere and Bama and Saban is often the example used. A majority of the players that Saban "cuts loose" are upperclassmen that have never seen the field and he realizes after 3 years aren't going to see the field. They're deadweight. True FR aren't deadweight, yet.

Oh, I agree. But I also think UT is in an abnormal position, so one should not expect utter normality. A few abnormalities we are seeing.

(a) Not all schools are in the rebuilding phases we are in.
(b) When rebuilding, not all schools hit the ground running with so many highly rated recruits, and can build such intense competition within the first couple of classes.
(c) It's abnormal to take such large recruiting classes.

Personally, I think we found ourselves in the position of having a large class, with a lot of talent, all of which was hoping for early playing time. Naturally, everyone can't be a starter, and if you have a lot of guys that are used to being the star, a certain percentage will not know how to deal with being beat out.

Then, you add in an all-star recruiting class coming in this year, and guys seeing even more competition... You have 5-6 guys who decide to look elsewhere for easier playing time.

Like I said, I'd rather have this problem than the Kiffin or Dooly-era problems. Kiffin had attrition to jail time. Dooley had mediocre talent that never got any better because there was no one to compete for playing time.

You guys can wring your hands all you want. UT is in better shape now than we were two years ago. We'll be in better shape next year than now. Go ahead and find things to obsess about. You just look kind of ridiculous doing it.
 
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You're too busy guzzling Drano for your constipation to realize how full of s*** you really are. :yuck: Butch is bringing in great players left and right...I'm supposed to b**** about some of them leaving because they're not good enough to start yet? We're not going to agree on this. If something doesn't work, I along with the vast majority of Vol fans figure it out. You gloomy failure junkies need a fix and want us to hook you up...ain't happening. :yu:

I'm such a failure junkie I spend several thousand dollars a year on tickets, travel and donations. I even spent money on a Butch t-shirt. Damn I hate Butch and UT.
 
I didn't imply it had anything to do with the staff. I simply said it's not as normal to lose FR to attrition as so many say it is. Folks say this happens everywhere and Bama and Saban is often the example used. A majority of the players that Saban "cuts loose" are upperclassmen that have never seen the field and he realizes after 3 years aren't going to see the field. They're deadweight. True FR aren't deadweight, yet.

And I don't think CBJ cut any of these guys loose. So you're point is getting lost somewhere.
 
The loss of Payne is a big hit to a position that is already thin. We now have 3 CB if Orta leaves as expected. Sutton, Mosely, and Foreman and that is razor thin. That is why the loss of Payne has many disappointed.
 
Dee Hart transferring is the reason UF hired Mac. He was a 5 star recruit who couldn't hack it at bama. Many of these kids have trouble adjusting to the level of commitment and to the realization that they are no longer the best player on the team. Hell, most find that they aren't even top 3 at their own position.

Some will go the juco route which provides a little more of a segue between high school and college. Others will do a small college route which helps with the ego. Some will try another big program and most times it seems this doesn't workout.
 
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We are not talking about the 2015 class. Pay attention.

Oh?...you're one of those that rates classes three or four years after they happen. What's Kiffin's lone class down to? How about Saban's last two? They lost highly rated running backs out of those classes....did they keep their #1 rankings? Haven't kept track of their news conferences. When do they release the class rerankings each year? Do Scout,Rivals and ESPN do it on the same day?
 
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Can't really say 2014 was a great recruiting class. We have lost too many off that class that were 4 star players. So, either Butch missed on talent evaluation or too many kids don't like what Butch is cooking. Either way, the defections are making Jones look bad and will set the program back for another year. Face it folks, Jones is spinning his wheels.

The loss of Payne is a big hit to a position that is already thin. We now have 3 CB if Orta leaves as expected. Sutton, Mosely, and Foreman and that is razor thin. That is why the loss of Payne has many disappointed.

Don't play coy now. You showed your motives already.
 
Dee Hart transferring is the reason UF hired Mac. He was a 5 star recruit who couldn't hack it at bama. Many of these kids have trouble adjusting to the level of commitment and to the realization that they are no longer the best player on the team. Hell, most find that they aren't even top 3 at their own position.

Some will go the juco route which provides a little more of a segue between high school and college. Others will do a small college route which helps with the ego. Some will try another big program and most times it seems this doesn't workout.

Si wrote an article backing what you say about kids not panning out when they transfer.
 
The loss of Payne is a big hit to a position that is already thin. We now have 3 CB if Orta leaves as expected. Sutton, Mosely, and Foreman and that is razor thin. That is why the loss of Payne has many disappointed.

You could measure the disappointment with?....(quick!...what do you use to measure microscopic quantities?)
 
And I don't think CBJ cut any of these guys loose. So you're point is getting lost somewhere.

Some have suggested he is culling these players. I don't think that is the case either but losing so many indicates a problem somewhere. A lot of time and money were invested in these players and now that is all wasted. Jones is going to be criticized if players continue to bolt in high numbers.
 
I'm such a failure junkie I spend several thousand dollars a year on tickets, travel and donations. I even spent money on a Butch t-shirt. Damn I hate Butch and UT.

Why do you pay so much money for something that causes you so much anguish? :blink:
 
Some have suggested he is culling these players. I don't think that is the case either but losing so many indicates a problem somewhere. A lot of time and money were invested in these players and now that is all wasted. Jones is going to be criticized if players continue to bolt in high numbers.

(You kind of lost credibility when you said Jones is 'spinning his wheels'.)

About 2/3 of our total roster is RS-Soph or younger. Think about that for a second. 41 of our 85-man roster are either FR or RSFresh. Think about that for a second.

Normally, you have a lot of talent with upper classman starters who are about to graduate. We have a HUGE batch of young talent that will be competing against one another their entire career. Not a lot of players that will be graduating next year to open spots for those 41 fresh.

Then you have a recruiting class with 20-something 4-5 star players coming in to add even more competition.

And you think it reflects poorly on the staff that 5 of those young players see the writing on the wall, see problems with playing time, and want to go elsewhere?
 
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Some have suggested he is culling these players. I don't think that is the case either but losing so many indicates a problem somewhere. A lot of time and money were invested in these players and now that is all wasted. Jones is going to be criticized if players continue to bolt in high numbers.

The problem was that there were mean old players in front of them that wouldn't go away...there are already people criticizing but they don't really matter.
 
You could measure the disappointment with?....(quick!...what do you use to measure microscopic quantities?)

When we are 6-6 again next year you might start to realize just how big these player losses are. Also, I wouldn't be so quick to assume we can just replace every 4 star that left with another 4 star. Butch has definitely backed himself into a corner. If we end up losing the bowl game I think fans are going to be even more disgruntled over these players leaving.
 
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When we are 6-6 again next year you might start to realize just how big these player losses are. Also, I wouldn't be so quick to assume we can just replace every 4 star that left with another 4 star. Butch has definitely backed himself into a corner. If we end up losing the bowl game I think fans are going to be even more disgruntled over these players leaving.

I'll let events transpire before I start cutting thank you...I'm not sure why you keep saying "we" btw.
 
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I'm really not buying into the opinions blaming attrition on the coaching staff.

We have one of the youngest teams in college football and the kids signed in 2014 sold on INSTANT playing time. A guy like Payne was highly recruited in D.C., comes on board and finds a two start recruit names Emmanuel Mosley getting reps that he believed were going to be his.

Now, Payne (as well as Hendrix, Helm etc.) are not only fighting to get on the field, but they are stuck behind a player in the same class! I think at this point some kids think back on all of the other offers they turned down and look for less competitive roster spots elsewhere.

My opinion. I can't say it is a bad move, depending on the player's goals but it doesn't seem like a culture problem created by the coaches.
 
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