D'Andre Payne

#501
#501
I'll just randomly throw out there Bgvol that I think you are as fos as a Christmas goose. You and all of your prognosticating is as wearisome as the wind in the outhouse in January. So you donate money. Big deal. That does not you a coach make. Did you even play the game? Probably not. The trouble with you armchair coaches is you have never actually done anything remotely similar to coaching athletics. But you always have all the easy answers. Blow it all out your anus.
 
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#502
#502
P.O.T.S. VOL said:
It is kind of fun......but you will always have the "sky is falling" people! Most know that CBJ makes mistakes and isn't perfect.....but who is? Even some negavols admit some coaches like stoops make mistakes! Bur before that Butch is a terrible coach! :eek:lol: :eek:lol: :eek:lol: :eek:lol:
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Who has said that?
 
#503
#503
smokey0625 said:
Ask any tn fan whose path would they rather have. Bray and company and their adventurous ride or McElroy's trip to the natty championship. I feel only an idiot who is just trying to argue would choose Bray and the fun bunch. I'd rather have traded bama for their players and won us another ring but hey that's just me.
Dooley is that you. You kinda sound like him. Arguing over stupid. I have a tn fan that is prot4cting dookey. You defend fools but you like to throw jones under the bus. You must be fools himself. Say hey to most Def for me I'm sure you guys tweet.
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You said he couldn't recruit and asked who he recruited, I named you multiple NFL talents. Looks like the NFL disagrees with your assessment. Dooley's ineptitude in coaching them up is why we lost, not for a lack of talent.

Where in this debate have I thrown Butch under the bus? What you'll find is multiple posts saying this isn't the staff's fault and they can't be held accountable if a kid doesn't want to be here. You'll also find me acknowledging Butch's recruiting prowess. But carry on with your agenda.
 
#504
#504
AllVolinGA said:
I'll just randomly throw out there Bgvol that I think you are as fos as a Christmas goose. You and all of your prognosticating is as wearisome as the wind in the outhouse in January. So you donate money. Big deal. That does not you a coach make. Did you even play the game? Probably not. The trouble with you armchair coaches is you have never actually done anything remotely similar to coaching athletics. But you always have all the easy answers. Blow it all out your anus.
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Have I mentioned anything that remotely resembles a coaching suggestion? Have I said Butch has failed in his recruiting or coaching and that I or anyone else could do better? I'll await as you try to find those accusations somewhere in this thread.

I did play the game, but my HS coaches didn't feel the need to play a 5'3 120lbs WR/DB very often. You see, I was a little on the small side in HS. However, upon hitting my growth spurt after graduating HS, I made for a beast on the IT intramural fields. 👍
 
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#505
#505
bowlinggreenvol said:
You said he couldn't recruit and asked who he recruited, I named you multiple NFL talents. Looks like the NFL disagrees with your assessment. Dooley's ineptitude in coaching them up is why we lost, not for a lack of talent.

Where in this debate have I thrown Butch under the bus? What you'll find is multiple posts saying this isn't the staff's fault and they can't be held accountable if a kid doesn't want to be here. You'll also find me acknowledging Butch's recruiting prowess. But carry on with your agenda.
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You serious clark. Do you think tn fans care if players are drafted or we win natty's.

I would trade the past 10 years with bama in a heart beat. I don't give a crap how many players we had drafted. Pretty sure they have had their fair share get drafted. Hell mcelRoy played in the league man. Doesnt mean anything for bama other than he got them that ring. I could care less if we have players drafted. If they were so great jones would have won more with them that first year.
 
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#507
#507
bowlinggreenvol said:
Have I mentioned anything that remotely resembles a coaching suggestion? Have I said Butch has failed in his recruiting or coaching and that I or anyone else could do better? I'll await as you try to find those accusations somewhere in this thread.

I did play the game, but my HS coaches didn't feel the need to play a 5'3 120lbs WR/DB very often. You see, I was a little on the small side in HS. However, upon hitting my growth spurt after graduating HS, I made for a beast on the IT intramural fields. 👍
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You imply, therefore you blame. By saying that their is a problem with transfers you blame butch. He is the head man, therefore you blame butch. You remind me of delissa.
 
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#508
#508
smokey0625 said:
You serious clark. Do you think tn fans care if players are drafted or we win natty's. You are an idiot.
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Is your point Dooley couldn't coach or he didn't have players? I can't keep your arguments straight. If it's the latter, the NFL disagrees with you. If it's the former, then I concur.

I guess the WRU moniker is useless since we only care about "natty's" and not NFL draft picks. Seeing as how an overwhelming majority of the WR's that constitute WRU never won a "natty". Show me a Vol fan who isn't proud of the fact that we've sent more guys to the NFL than any other SEC team, or that we're roughly the 5th most represented university in the NFL today and I'll show you an idiot. Oops, looks like I found him in the post quoted above.
 
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#509
#509
bowlinggreenvol said:
Is your point Dooley couldn't coach or he didn't have players? I can't keep your arguments straight. If it's the latter, the NFL disagrees with you. If it's the former, then I concur.

I guess the WRU moniker is useless since we only care about "natty's" and not NFL draft picks. Seeing as how an overwhelming majority of the WR's that constitute WRU never won a "natty". Show me a Vol fan who isn't proud of the fact that we've sent more guys to the NFL than any other SEC team, or that we're roughly the 5th most represented university in the NFL today and I'll show you an idiot. Oops, looks like I found him in the post quoted above.
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My point is I dont think Dooley brought in talent or coached well. He brought no rb onto our team. Darick, Bray, Hunter were not his recruits according to you. That means tiny and none of the oline were his correct? No dbs were a crap except for Randolph.
 
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#510
#510
smokey0625 said:
You imply, therefore you blame. By saying that their is a problem with transfers you blame butch. He is the head man, therefore you blame butch. You remind me of delissa.
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Hahaha there you go again. I'll break it down one more time for the slowness in you. I said transfers hinder/hurt/slowdown the accumulation of depth process and that experience is preferred to non-experience. I think CBJ would agree, seeing as how he said having to play 20+ FR this year was not ideal. Nothing more, nothing less. I never said there's a problem and that's why people are transferring. Hopefully that sinks in now.
 
#511
#511
smokey0625 said:
My point is I dont think Dooley brought in talent or coached well. He brought no rb onto our team. Darick, Bray, Hunter were not his recruits according to you. That means tiny and none of the oline were his correct? No dbs were a crap except for Randolph.
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I said Bray wasn't, that's it. I listed Hunter and I assumed your stupid nickname for whoever, referred to Da'Rick so I didn't mention him cause you already did. Your reading skills are pathetic cause you'll also missed where I said he recruited Tiny and James Stone.

And Cam and AJ and Curt and Vereen. All of those guys committed on his watch. At least the other guys bring a sense of intelligent debate to the table.
 
#513
#513
smokey0625 said:
You imply, therefore you blame. By saying that their is a problem with transfers you blame butch. He is the head man, therefore you blame butch. You remind me of delissa.
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I'm not sure debate with you is worthwhile until you have a better grasp of the "world" than this.

Saying there is a problem is NOT saying Jones is to "blame". It is his "responsibility". Much hated word in today's culture I know... but nonetheless a very important one.

It is his responsibility to find the right players to build the program and then develop and coach them into winning teams. When you have attrition and especially among promising talents early in their careers then that points to some shortcoming. Maybe the evaluations were wrong. Maybe the expectations between the two parties weren't clear. Maybe the coaches do use language that players consider abusive. Maybe they just flat out push so hard that some guys just won't give what they require.... but in all that.... it is STILL Jones responsibility to man a roster with players who can win.
 
#514
#514
sjt18 said:
I'm not sure debate with you is worthwhile until you have a better grasp of the "world" than this.

Saying there is a problem is NOT saying Jones is to "blame". It is his "responsibility". Much hated word in today's culture I know... but nonetheless a very important one.

It is his responsibility to find the right players to build the program and then develop and coach them into winning teams. When you have attrition and especially among promising talents early in their careers then that points to some shortcoming. Maybe the evaluations were wrong. Maybe the expectations between the two parties weren't clear. Maybe the coaches do use language that players consider abusive. Maybe they just flat out push so hard that some guys just won't give what they require.... but in all that.... it is STILL Jones responsibility to man a roster with players who can win.
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I'm sure we are over analyzing this as we do many things. Attrition is a normal occurrence that happens. Sometimes kids leave early and sometimes later in tenure but it is fairly normal for 35-40% to leave before they complete eligibility at their signing school.

https://drive.google.com/?tab=wo&authuser=0#folders/0B4PWr1nGk0GQMi1DMWd5TkN3OEE
 
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#515
#515
smokey0625 said:
My point is I dont think Dooley brought in talent or coached well. He brought no rb onto our team. Darick, Bray, Hunter were not his recruits according to you. That means tiny and none of the oline were his correct? No dbs were a crap except for Randolph.
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Dooley's recruiting was disjointed but he did bring in some talent. He was no worse than on par with what Shula did. The loss of Wilcox was also a major blow. He and the LB coach that went with him may have been the best recruiters in the staff.

Dooley personally was a poor coach. He did however have some decent asst's work for him... and they did what they could.

Dooley by no stretch recruited on par with Jones. That was probably the biggest question mark considering Jones' resume coming in. He's elite... and make no doubt... it is about Jones and not asst's. Asst's do work but the HC is the attraction and one the kids count on being there for their career. They know asst's come and go.

That said, the bigger problem with Dooley was bad attrition and recruiting gaps. Between failing to sign an OL in '12 and leaving Jones in a bad situation in '13... there was a hole behind the guys who left last year. He didn't sign a LT that I know of except for Tiny in his 3 years. The talented DB's he did get a commitment from generally didn't pan out for various reasons.

Dooley himself was handed a pretty crappy situation. The 07 and 09 recruiting classes turned into busts and 08 was Fulmer's worst class. He just wasn't able to make it a whole lot better.


The question though... is if in retrospect we can so clearly see that attrition and gaps in recruiting not only tanked Dooley but left Jones a tough situation... why shouldn't we be concerned when we see the DE attrition we've seen?
 
#516
#516
LWSVOL said:
I'm sure we are over analyzing this as we do many things. Attrition is a normal occurrence that happens. Sometimes kids leave early and sometimes later in tenure but it is fairly normal for 35-40% to leave before they complete eligibility at their signing school.

https://drive.google.com/?tab=wo&authuser=0#folders/0B4PWr1nGk0GQMi1DMWd5TkN3OEE
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I was hoping you'd come along with that. I knew that you had posted it various times. Thanks. :hi:

I thought I remembered 20-30% but thanks for the correction.

The issue I see is the concentrated losses at a single position and then to a somewhat lesser degree the loss of guys who have played early and the loss of players so early in their careers.
 
#521
#521
#522
#522
sjt18 said:
Beautiful. Thanks.

Didn't you do some sort of revised class ranking thing one time as well? All attrition is obviously not equal between those programs. Losing a talented player due to conduct would seem more harmful than losing a player because they could not earn playing time.
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no, not me. I don't pay enough attention to recruiting to do that. I also have grown to not pay that much attention to the rankings any longer. I keep up and document them but I could name half of Tennessee's class right now.

I understand that if you year after year sign 4 and 5 star players (like Alabama) then you will keep enough to compete for a title. But I also understand you can approach it like Missouri. Sign 3 and 4 stars (more 3' than 4's) but redshirt them so you have lots of Redshirt Jrs and Srs and you can also compete for titles.

so strategies are different. Just as important to keep players as sign high rated players. The 35-40% is true for a ranked players and when there are only 30 or so 5 stars, means 10 or 12 likely are busts.
 
#523
#523
LWSVOL said:
no, not me. I don't pay enough attention to recruiting to do that. I also have grown to not pay that much attention to the rankings any longer. I keep up and document them but I could name half of Tennessee's class right now.

I understand that if you year after year sign 4 and 5 star players (like Alabama) then you will keep enough to compete for a title. But I also understand you can approach it like Missouri. Sign 3 and 4 stars (more 3' than 4's) but redshirt them so you have lots of Redshirt Jrs and Srs and you can also compete for titles.

so strategies are different. Just as important to keep players as sign high rated players. The 35-40% is true for a ranked players and when there are only 30 or so 5 stars, means 10 or 12 likely are busts.
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Omg......I can't believe somebody actually gets it! Yes, there are different approaches and different models. Lsu sells the nfl very similar to what the vols did under Fulmer. As a consequence, they Sind a lot of blue chippers that only stay three years. I would like for us to sign great players, but do find value in having a lot of 5th year seniors.
I think we win 7 or 8 next season, but we are depending once again on too many first year players. We need to get away from that if we want to become championship calibre.
 
#525
#525
BeattieFeathers said:
I think we win 7 or 8 next season, but we are depending once again on too many first year players. We need to get away from that if we want to become championship calibre.
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Feel free to jump into any of a number of conversations where folks are arguing that losing guys before they start their 2nd season is no big deal.

Attrition happens and is necessary. But you want it to be the right players for the right reasons. Even Mizzou according to Larry's spreadsheet loses about 35% of their players. They very often recruit guys that have few if any other good offers. It takes a "system" that accommodates those kinds of players and a very good evaluation process.

That all said.... Mizzou hasn't won a conference or national championship of any sort in the modern era. If they didn't happen to join the East at a time when UT and UF were down... the compliments of their program would be more along the lines of "That's nice... you've finished 3rd or 4th each year."

If UT, UF, or both return to "norm" then Mizzou is pretty much done winning the East.
 
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