Crossing/slant routes... can a football guru explain?

#27
#27
BlinghamptonVol said:
A complaint from uga fans the last few years under Chaney was no slants or throws to the middle of the field. Even with fromm being NFL caliber and some pretty good wide receivers and an oline that could give plenty of time, passes stayed to the outside. I don’t know if it’s solely JG’s accuracy and timing issues, or if CJC has just gone away from that over the past couple of years and is just in a rut. His play calling seems predictable, even with a liability at qb.
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Well, Vols threw slants and digs a lot last season to Jennings. I don’t think it’s Chaney as much as it is JG changing the call at the line.
 
#28
#28
BigNasty said:
Crossing routes take time. Something UT QB's haven't had since Tyler Bray. They work best against a zone defense. You must have a QB you trust as high throws over the middle against a zone usually end badly. Look at Peyton vs UGA. They played zone exclusively and he ate them up. Florida played man and could rush the passer. That's a no go for the deep cross. I can't tell you why we don't run slants.
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You answered your own question (“You must have a QB you trust”).
 
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#30
#30
Kinglberry said:
JG can't reliably throw them for one. He over throws, under throws, behind, too far ahead, too hard, too soft, you name it. Add on that he stares the receiver down and the linebackers/safeties just lick their lips wanting that ball.

Defensively, we play man almost exclusively, crossing routes are open in man coverage. In zone, the middle is harder to hit and the edges become the open areas, between the under DB and the over Safety.

Short quick slant routes right off the line require very quick coverage from the linebackers seeing it coming. The DB is almost always trailing, the outside backs have to get in front and jam the ball/make the QB pull it and find another target. Ours aren't coverage backers, they are more attacking the line types.

JGs inaccuracy and slow delivery on the very quick snap and throw slant make it a high probability failure play.
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Per Bleacher Report:
Most crossing routes are designed to beat zone coverage, but some are also built to beat man-to-man.

As I said in my original post the crossing route is designed to find holes primarily in zone. Not trying to be a jerk but please inform yourself before posting.
 
#32
#32
knox-townVOL said:
We don’t throw them.

We can’t stop them.

Someone help me out here. Why is this the case? It would stand to reason that we can’t stop them because our QB doesn’t throw them in practice, but is it also our defensive formation that keeps us from stopping them? I just don’t get it.
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You need a QB that processes information quickly, anticipates throws/coverage, and can fit the ball into a tight window consistently. UT has not had a starter who could do that since Bray.... and he did it pretty well.
 
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#33
#33
CladInOrange said:
I think it’s mainly has to do with our linebackers being too aggressive with run defense.
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This is a possibility. The slant works best when thrown behind a blitzing linebacker. Defending the slant is a really simple concept. Linebacker under/safety over.
 
#34
#34
Spurrier killed us with slants. You need quickness at the QB and WR position. Snap, step, throw. DB doesn't have time to react to the ball. QB must trust that the WR will be where the ball is going and that the WR knows how to get off the DB. DB must be quick enough to react and make a play instead of waiting around to see what is going on. Fast DB is not the same as quick DB. To defend the slant you need quickness. A slant, if completed, should not get more than a few yards if the DB (or LB) reacts quickly and stops the play.
 
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#35
#35
BigNasty said:
Per Bleacher Report:
Most crossing routes are designed to beat zone coverage, but some are also built to beat man-to-man.

As I said in my original post the crossing route is designed to find holes primarily in zone. Not trying to be a jerk but please inform yourself before posting.
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Now was that last sentence necessary?
 
#36
#36
knox-townVOL said:
We don’t throw them.

We can’t stop them.

Someone help me out here. Why is this the case? It would stand to reason that we can’t stop them because our QB doesn’t throw them in practice, but is it also our defensive formation that keeps us from stopping them? I just don’t get it.
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We have given up a lot of yards on slants and crossing patterns. Last week, neither To o To o did not have his best game. Neither did the other inside LB and I don't remembers his name being Called all day. Depending of the defenseive call, the Nickel or CB may have that responsibility. Even the OLB may responsibilities with that coverage. Regardless, none of them have played the passes over the middle very well. Last year, our defense defended the pass over the middle much better.
 
#39
#39
knox-townVOL said:
We don’t throw them.

We can’t stop them.

Someone help me out here. Why is this the case? It would stand to reason that we can’t stop them because our QB doesn’t throw them in practice, but is it also our defensive formation that keeps us from stopping them? I just don’t get it.
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I ain't no football guru but I played a lot of backyard ball in my time. My answer to your question: our LBs can't cover the pass across the middle. Expect every team we play to attack that obvious weakness.
 
#40
#40
I will try to make this as shirt as possible. I was a hs DC for a while and attended a lot of conferences and got to talk to several Coaches about coverage. I spent a good while with Kirby Smart while he was at Alabama and got to see several other really good coaches describe coverage and philosophy. People must understand that football has changed. Coverage and philosophy are not what they once were.
The old philosophy from a lot of coaches was not to give anyone anything and now it is to prevent the big play. The Pruitt style of defense, in my mind, over exaggerates that principle. They would rather give up 5 than give up six, because one off schedule play completely destroys the old 3yaeds and a cloud of dust or get five on a slant philosophy. That philosophy statistically of short yardage production is not very good. The percentage of drives where you score without a 20+ yard play is less than 10%. By preventing chunk plays, you in theory prevent scoring in modern football. The problem is when you give up chunks on high percentage plays like slants. Competing a slant for 3 is a good defensive play. Competing a slant for 3 with a yac of six+ like we seem to do is horrible. Our LBs can't read and rob slants because our DL can't control the box and the lbs have to overcommit to the box this giving up easy lanes. The DL is a gigantic problem.

Offensively, we don't throw slants because Guarantano has no timing and when we get off schedule due to incompletions, we have no answer. We are better at going vertical. Chunk plays are the only way we score. Period. We cannot drive teams. We are much to inefficient. So, we don't throw slants. A lot of teams also can play without committing a lot of defenders to the box on us due to our OL issues. They are taking away easy passing stuff and forcing us to Run it with a soft box, but we can't block the down linemen and don't pop big runs. So, teams can force G to throw contested balls and we can't. So we suck.
 
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#41
#41
It has a lot to do with our Linebackers. They are young and To'o To'o is a bit undersized to a MLB. They are playing tight to the line to help bolster the D line that Pruitt has said many times he was not happy with this year. When they play tight to the line there is a vast open area behind them and in front of the safeties wich gives the opposing QB a ton of room to throw into. It is an easy pitch and catch for 10 yds especially when there is little preasure from the D-line.

As to why we dont throw them, I do not know unless it is due to the overthrow or high throw problems. Chaney seems to only want to throw to the sidelines. All the throw seem to go to the 10 yds area near the sideline. He doesnot use the other 35 yd in the middle. May be it is because we dont have a TE that is a receiving weapon . Since we dont throw over the middle it allows the LBs to play tighter to stop runs and blitz, meaning we have to keep a running back in to help protect which means they have more d backs than we have receivers, especially when they get to use the sideline as an extra d back.. TT needs to move back to woutside linbacker and we need a bigger middle lb to atleast block the view of the QB on their slants and crosses.
Just my opinion. But look at the plays from behind the QB and you can see this. Dont know why Chany cant or wont.
 
#43
#43
BigNasty said:
Crossing routes take time. Something UT QB's haven't had since Tyler Bray. They work best against a zone defense. You must have a QB you trust as high throws over the middle against a zone usually end badly. Look at Peyton vs UGA. They played zone exclusively and he ate them up. Florida played man and could rush the passer. That's a no go for the deep cross. I can't tell you why we don't run slants.
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We don't run slants because we don't trust our qb. If he overthrows, which he does a lot, it is most likely an int. These slants need to be in our offensive scheme with a qb who can run it.
 
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#44
#44
de1conley said:
This is a circumstance of two things on offense. The first being poor OL coaching/play. 2 awful qb play. Oh and a 3rd I forgot poor route combinations by the offensive staff the entire Botch Jones tenure.
On defense it’s schematic and comes from yes lack of repetition at practice and guys being out of place on the field.
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Pretty simple really
 
#45
#45
DarkAvenger said:
True. There’s also a lot of people that don’t know that you can split the field with zone/ man assignments. The fact we play Split safety coverage does leave us vulnerable to mesh/slant concepts without stellar LB play. Communication dropped off this year but that’s understandable since it’s Henry’s 1st year and 5th game truly running the defense.
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Agreed. It takes an experienced guy to get everyone in the right spot, unfortunately even when he gets them there, they aren't adequate enough,,,, yet. Maybe they will be in time, or someone else will.
 
#46
#46
gunner said:
I’m not a coac, just a fan that played some high school years ago. Stoping the slant is possible in man cover as it depends on leverage. Vols seem to always play outside leverage; thus, giving the receiver the inside to run the slant and get open. Additionally, they don’t play up on the receiver to jam him initially coming off the line of scrimmage especially in the slot. Those two adjustments could help with defending the slant route, but it also leaves the defense vulnerable in many other way.
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You are correct in that it can be stopped, it's just the weakness in man coverage is the middle of the field vs zone where it's the edge gaps. You need strong big fast corners who jam hard on the wr and force them out. Our guys play to not get beat, so they play off which gives the room needed and makes them trail the slant. Bryce and Taylor are nice but they aren't top shut down corners. The nickel guy, whoever is in, just isn't quick enough or strong enough to handle his place. That's why opposing teams are targeting it.
 
#48
#48
BigNasty said:
Per Bleacher Report:
Most crossing routes are designed to beat zone coverage, but some are also built to beat man-to-man.

As I said in my original post the crossing route is designed to find holes primarily in zone. Not trying to be a jerk but please inform yourself before posting.
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My grandmother told me everything someone says after but is exactly what they really mean. So, you are trying to be a jerk.


Moving on. I get that you like to use bleacher report and the coaching for dummies books like Lyle. Enjoy those fascinating reads.
 
#49
#49
Found some more info on SECstatcat that helps explain why this is such a big problem and why the QB position has such a HUGE impact on an OL's ability to open holes in the run game.

In 5 games where JG has played every competitive snap... he has ZERO completions between the hashes to a target deeper than 10 yards. Maybe even worse... he has only 4 attempts. For those of you who want to blame playcalling... Chaney flat out does not trust JG to throw down the middle of the field. That is a HUGE liability. It allows LB's to play run first all the time and still be able to drop and keep the short dump offs in front of them. It gives the DC pretty much an open invitation to blitz up the middle.

The reason you avoid the middle and give your QB sideline throws is when they struggle with reading coverage. Usually it is a young, inexperienced QB that coaches will "half the field" or else give them the protection of the sideline. Another reason is that you know your QB has difficulty with timing and anticipation... or accuracy.
 
#50
#50
Not a guru but here goes.

You need accuracy and time to pull them off on offense but talent and disciplined defenders to stop it on defense.

We don’t have any of that.

Botched assignments on either side means an interception against our O or getting burned for 15+ by our D. It’s a really bad sign to see us failing on both sides of this.
 
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