Commandant of the Marine Corps bans all Confederate symbols

#176
#176
Roustabout said:
Again, you can debate those things until you are blue in the face. We have to deal with the here and now. And now, the confederate flag should be a private issue.
We'd probably even agree on a lot of the points. However, Lincoln did not recognize secession, or a "Confederate States," so from that perspective it wasn't an invasion. Ft. Sumter was property of the United States, so the Confederacy had no claim to it.
Click to expand...
King George didn't recognize the right of the colonies to be free either. Should we still be part of Great Britain?
 
  • Like
Reactions: goldenvol, DynaLo, Rickyvol77 and 2 others
#178
#178
NCFisher said:
Yeah, familiar with the argument. And let's say slavery was not just the prominent reason given, but the only reason given (which it wasn't).

You're telling me why states seceded, but missing the other half of your argument: why the North went to war. Seven states had seceded between Dec. 20 and Feb 1, before Lincoln took office March 4, and I don't see any war going on then...hmmm.

No; as I've stated, and it's been no secret for at least a decade now, the North was equally culpable in America's slavery. Everyone can kick themselves, or maybe no one should be kicking anyone. At least until everyone moves past a 1950s elementary school understanding of the subject.
Click to expand...
And there is no doubt that a result of the Civil War and the eventual abolition of slavery.
 
#179
#179
Weezer said:
King George didn't recognize the right of the colonies to be free either. Should we still be part of Great Britain?
Click to expand...
That's actually a great question. The founders presented their case for independence. As I recall it wasn't built on slavery.

The History is written. If the south had won, they would have the spoils of victory.
The colonies won.
 
#180
#180
Roustabout said:
Again, you can debate those things until you are blue in the face. We have to deal with the here and now. And now, the confederate flag should be a private issue.
We'd probably even agree on a lot of the points. However, Lincoln did not recognize secession, or a "Confederate States," so from that perspective it wasn't an invasion. Ft. Sumter was property of the United States, so the Confederacy had no claim to it.
Click to expand...

Why should Confederate flags and memorials be private things? It *our* - the USA's - history, and it is especially Southern history. Southerners don't begrudge Northern states honoring Union veterans, leaders, and battles, and ask the same courtesy.

Well, whatever Lincoln's perspective, it was invasion, forcible attempt to subjugate. Ft. Sumter was a provocation designed to have the South fire first because Lincoln knew if they allowed resupply, it was over, knew they could not allow it.

Davis had offered to meet with Lincoln repeatedly for diplomatic relations, and reimbursing the North for any federal installations/holdings in secession states as well as their share of national debt. Few seem to know this.
 
  • Like
Reactions: DynaLo and AM64
#181
#181
Roustabout said:
That's actually a great question. The founders presented their case for independence. As I recall it wasn't built on slavery.

The History is written. If the south had won, they would have the spoils of victory.
The colonies won.
Click to expand...
Isn't the argument for independence always self-governance?
 
  • Like
Reactions: DynaLo, Rickyvol77, AM64 and 2 others
#182
#182
Roustabout said:
And there is no doubt that a result of the Civil War and the eventual abolition of slavery.
Click to expand...

Well, no one argues that, but to retroactively use abolition as justification when it was not a reason for the war, really isn't being honest about our history.
 
  • Like
Reactions: AM64
#183
#183
Weezer said:
I think an argument can be made that the Constitution supports the right of a state or states to leave the Union. The word union itself suggests a voluntary agreement.
Click to expand...
Does it tho? The Supreme Court seemed to think you're wrong on the matter.

It's interesting the founding fathers created a method of allowing new states in, but declined to expand on how they could leave if they desired.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Rickyvol77
#184
#184
Only_1_OK said:
Does it tho? The Supreme Court seemed to think you're wrong on the matter.

It's interesting the founding fathers created a method of allowing new states in, but declined to expand on how they could leave if they desired.
Click to expand...

SCOTUS is often wrong.
 
  • Like
Reactions: AM64
#185
#185
hog88 said:
SCOTUS is often wrong.
Click to expand...
I won't argue that, but most historians and politicians point to that specific decision as the grounds for denial of secession. Basically the "indestructible union" the justices spoke of.

Again, there are methods of allowing entry, but not exit. Sounds like a cult.
 
  • Like
Reactions: hog88
#187
#187
Only_1_OK said:
Does it tho? The Supreme Court seemed to think you're wrong on the matter.

It's interesting the founding fathers created a method of allowing new states in, but declined to expand on how they could leave if they desired.
Click to expand...

The FFs recognized the right of revolution, as evidenced by the Declaration of Independence.
 
  • Like
Reactions: DynaLo and AM64
#189
#189
Roustabout said:
And it is ignorant to fail to grasp the affects of that flag on African Americans, and why it should be banned from government use. You want to fly from your flag pole, be my guest. You can debate those other points until you are blue in the face. The fact is this, the Civil War was prompted primarily due to the abominable institution of slavery. No slavery, no civil war.
Click to expand...
...and even if you find that historically debatable, I don’t think there’s any doubt that’s the way many people have come to view the symbol. Arguing for Stars and Bars is kind of like arguing for the original meaning of the swastika. You may technically be right, but it’s hard to battle the ingrained symbolism.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Roustabout
#193
#193
Mick said:
It's your writing style and he lives in Oklahoma. He was into war history too.
Click to expand...
I have style? Don't tell my wife, she picks out all my clothing.

I'm not into war history as much as current events involving the military. I remember a couple of years ago after the Charleston shooting the press started making a big deal over the bases named for Confederate war veterans. I thought it was stupid then, I still think its stupid now because the posts have a persona of their own and its not like the namesakes are being celebrated and pointed out during inprocessing. In short, who cares except the extreme minority that's offended by everything and is vocal about it.

As stated, the Crayon-Eater Commandant can do as he pleases with the removal of Confederate flags from his installations. I am wondering what brought it on specifically.
 
#195
#195
Mick said:
The North backed the Government, The South didn't. Is it that hard?
Click to expand...

Any people anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up, and shake off the existing government, and form a new one that suits them better. This is a most valuable - a most sacred right - a right, which we hope and believe, is to liberate the world.
Click to expand...

Abraham Lincoln Quotes
 
  • Like
Reactions: NCFisher
#196
#196
Only_1_OK said:
I have style? Don't tell my wife, she picks out all my clothing.

I'm not into war history as much as current events involving the military. I remember a couple of years ago after the Charleston shooting the press started making a big deal over the bases named for Confederate war veterans. I thought it was stupid then, I still think its stupid now because the posts have a persona of their own and its not like the namesakes are being celebrated and pointed out during inprocessing. In short, who cares except the extreme minority that's offended by everything and is vocal about it.

As stated, the Crayon-Eater Commandant can do as he pleases with the removal of Confederate flags from his installations. I am wondering what brought it on specifically.
Click to expand...
Well that settles it. You can't be GV, he's gay. just kidding.
 
#199
#199
Mick said:
And there wouldn't be a United States. Is it that hard?
Click to expand...

The states would have either reunited and set back federalism by decades, or we'd be allies like the US and Canada. The differences except possibly the one of federalism vs more local rule would have gone away. There is a reason we are the "United States" and not just simply a name like "America" - you and too many others just ignore what's in front of your face. We didn't eliminate states; the founding fathers tried to get them to work together for the common good. Brexit is all about the very same issue as our war between the states. EU represents federalism, and the UK represents states rights - it's just that damn simple.
 
  • Like
Reactions: DynaLo, NCFisher and VolStrom
New posts
You must log in or register to reply here.

VN Store



Back
Top