Clutch is Overrated!!!

#76
#76
nbakerld said:
My point is y'all are married to stats, too. I'll prove it to you:

Kobe averages 20 FGA's and 25 Points per game over his career. Say he was the exact same player, but he had only shot 12 times per game over his career. That'd mean he only scored 15 ppg over his career. Everyone's opinion of him would drastically change, even though he's the exact same player just taking fewer shots. Nobody would consider him to be an all-time great talent. Even if he had 5 championships.
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If MJ only shot 5 shots per game, he wouldn't be the greatest ever.

You realize how silly that sounds?
 
#77
#77
ESPN's list of top 10 SG's all time. I am a bit surprised that 3 of them averaged less than 20 ppg, but maybe there aren't more than 6 retired SG's that averaged 20 ppg. Either way, Joe Dumars is at the bottom with 16 ppg. He has multiple titles. Nobody would put him in the conversation for best SG ever. Scoring is the only way to get into that conversation.

Special Dime: Greatest shooting guards of all time - NBA - ESPN
 
#78
#78
Spartacavolus said:
If MJ only shot 5 shots per game, he wouldn't be the greatest ever.

You realize how silly that sounds?
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You're missing the point. He is who he is, regardless of how many shots he takes. I'm saying Jordan would still be the greatest player ever, but nobody would recognize him as such. Nobody would recognize the talent. They won't recognize the talent unless the talent is taking 20 shots per game.

This is strictly from a talent-scouting perspective. We all use stats to assess talent. If a SG isn't scoring 20 per game, he's not getting in the conversation, even if he does everything else extremely well.
 
#79
#79
A lot of the time the great players are given the ball to create their own shot because of the shot clock winding down so they don't get the great looks all the time. The more selective shooter will only take high percentage shots. Stats don't cover everything.
 
#80
#80
Volsbackto1998 said:
A lot of the time the great players are given the ball to create their own shot because of the shot clock winding down so they don't get the great looks all the time. The more selective shooter will only take high percentage shots. Stats don't cover everything.
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It averages out.

Kobe takes 20 shots per game, 4 of which were affected by the shot clock buzzer.

Derek Fisher takes 5 shots per game, 1 of which were affected by the shot clock buzzer.

There's no reason to think Kobe takes a higher % of buzzer beaters per shot. Everybody gets forced into that situation, regardless of how many shots they take.
 
#81
#81
nbakerld said:
It averages out.

Kobe takes 20 shots per game, 4 of which were affected by the shot clock buzzer.

Derek Fisher takes 5 shots per game, 1 of which were affected by the shot clock buzzer.

There's no reason to think Kobe takes a higher % of buzzer beaters per shot. Everybody gets forced into that situation, regardless of how many shots they take.
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Where are you getting these stats from?
 
#82
#82
Not to mention, Kobe forces bad shots, all the time. He doesn't need a buzzer to do it.

That's the problem with Kobe. His shot selection is horrible. He makes difficult shots better than anybody else, and that's why his talent is so widely appreciated. What people fail to calculate is that he has the worst shot selection in the NBA (if not Carmelo). Just cause you are the best at shooting out of a double team doesn't mean it's effective scoring. Kobe doesn't care. He likes the "oohs and ahs" he gets when he beats a double team.
 
#84
#84
If the shot clock is winding down, who does the ball go to? The best player. He either finds his own usually difficult shot or if someone else has a wide open look than he passes to them. The fact is the better players are faced with tougher defenders and tougher shots.
 
#85
#85
Volsbackto1998 said:
If the shot clock is winding down, who does the ball go to? The best player. He either finds his own usually difficult shot or if someone else has a wide open look than he passes to them. The fact is the better players are faced with tougher defenders and tougher shots.
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Show me the data if it's a fact.

Derek Fisher made one of the most amazing buzzer beaters of all time. He had .2 seconds and a guy in his face. Kobe isn't the only guy forced to take bad shots.
 
#86
#86
nbakerld said:
My point is y'all are married to stats, too. I'll prove it to you:

Kobe averages 20 FGA's and 25 Points per game over his career. Say he was the exact same player, but he had only shot 12 times per game over his career. That'd mean he only scored 15 ppg over his career. Everyone's opinion of him would drastically change, even though he's the exact same player just taking fewer shots. Nobody would consider him to be an all-time great talent. Even if he had 5 championships.
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Not true. Otherwise everybody would think Karl Malone was better than Larry Bird and Dominique Wilkins was an all time great.
 
#87
#87
Watch a game and get out of the stat sheets. Better players are counted on to create a shot when there isn't a wide open one available. Every game you see it.
 
#90
#90
GAVol said:
Not true. Otherwise everybody would think Karl Malone was better than Larry Bird and Dominique Wilkins was an all time great.
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Wilkins isn't considered an all-time great?

Malone and Bird play different positions, and only 1 ppg separates them. Also Bird has 3 titles (the other stat people care about).

Also, if you are a PG, you can get away with just 15 ppg.
 
#91
#91
GAVol said:
That's kind of like asking somebody to prove the sky is blue while you're standing outside on a sunny day.
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You're saying that Kobe's teammates rely on him more than normal when the clock is winding down, and you think this is as obvious as the sky being blue? He has the ball in his hands all the time. He takes the good shots and the bad shots because the ball is ALWAYS in his hands. Not just at the end of the shot clock.

That is a completely unfounded assumption.
 
#96
#96
GAVol said:
Yep
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So what do you think the increase would be if you had to guess? Kobe takes 30% of their shots. So would you guess he takes 50% of their shot clock bailout shots? Since it's so obvious to you that this increase is happening, it should be easy to give me a good estimate.
 
#97
#97
GAVol said:
This is like arguing morality with a hooker.
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You're gonna go there? Your stubborn assumption that Kobe's shot-taking rate increases is an indictment that you are intellectually challenged. I wasn't gonna say it.
 
#98
#98
nbakerld said:
So what do you think the increase would be if you had to guess? Kobe takes 30% of their shots. So would you guess he takes 50% of their shot clock bailout shots? Since it's so obvious to you that this increase is happening, it should be easy to give me a good estimate.
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Now mix estimates in with your statistics - great.
I would estimate 90%.
 
#99
#99
Using statistics carelessly to defend his dislike of Kobe. I don't like Lebron, but I can watch him a tell you he is a great player. Even when he was in Cleveland and had to take every shot.
 
#100
#100
GAVol said:
This is like arguing morality with a hooker.
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I don't even know what the argument is. I think he even said that MJ would still be the greatest of all time if he never put up any stats, but that we only know he is the greatest because he blew it up and scored 60 a couple of times.

This should be in the philosophy forum.
 
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