Cincy people were right/Butch pros & cons

[jakez4ut]

I wouldn't cry if he left on his own after this season.

i would. the timing is terrible....administratively, we're in no position to be hiring a new hc. and at the end of this season it's likely to have several other big schools looking to fill HC spots. not the time you want to get in to a bidding war, only to come up short.

 

[sjt18]

this is all that matters. he's not going anywhere in the near future, so right now, the only question that has to be answered is will he make those decisions, and then, make them the right way.

That depends but I agree his standard is likely a good bit below where I would want it.

he's shown so far that he's willing to do that with his firing of jancek and bringing in Shoop.

will he make the same assessment regarding the offense, s/c, o line etc....and act appropriately?

How long has he had to watch the trends on the OL without acting appropriately. If there is a case for firing him now then it starts with the OL. It is a glaring example of a gross failure to assess a situation and act appropriately.

bottom line, if he's going to captain this ship to championship level, he's going to have to show that he understands why this team has fallen fairly flat, given the talent and expectations....whether we make it to ATL or not.

All true. Maybe we aren't at the same place with regard to how much he's demonstrated his ability or inability to do that? I see too many trends with almost all of them pointing away from him being the answer.

the East as a whole is woefully behind the 8 ball when it comes to the line of scrimmage, considering what you're seeing from Bama, LSU, Auburn, aTm etc...so if he's going to do what needs to be done, it has to start there with s/c and o line coach....and then take the next step and be "the salesman", and hire an OC that can just run it, with a hands off approach from the HC.

You aren't wrong though I suspect the S&C coach should get another year unless he simply continued with minor changes what the previous one did. If Jones thought "continuity" was a good thing there.... then that points to yet another issue with his ability to assess.

The OL approach simply doesn't work... but it is the one Jones approves. Same with the OC.

I agree with you that his survival probably depends on "evolving" into someone who manages the OC and learns from a great one. If he insists on "his system" run by "someone he trusts" then.... he's hanging himself and the program.

jones is responsible for "the program", recruiting, and game management decisions....he should have coordinators and position coaches that can run the day to day personnel and game planning operations. he should be managing this from 30,000 feet. not ground level.

you know, the CEO.

Yeah. I get your point but the better HC's seem to have a particular strength they bring to the table. Saban's is D and specifically DB's. Bama's D is able to do what it does because their DB's play very well.... and for some reason are able to absolutely get away with murder. Saban has coached that. Without Saban's oversight of the D.... Bama probably doesn't have the run they've had in recruiting and on the field.

Petrino brings offense as does Malzahn. The CEO types I can think of include Richt and Miles.

 

[McDad]

To be "fair"... Cincy was in the Big East when Jones was there. They were one of the BCS conferences. And also to be fair, you should have gone back and looked at the OOC opponents he played from other BCS conferences in those two years.

They played weak schedules. That's simply a fact.


Except that's not what I did. His "big" OOC games in those two years were UT (5-7), NCSU (8-5), Vandy (6-7), VT (7-6), and Duke (6-7).

Even when he played the big conference programs.... they weren't very good teams.

His records were built on bad schedules. His record was built against lower caliber coaches. That does not translate to his current challenge.

CBJ, acording to DAJ (who cites the 4 year recruiting ave as a predictor of records) CBJ was a plus 2 coach. He avearged 2 wins a season against teams with better talent.

 

[YankeeVol]

i would. the timing is terrible....administratively, we're in no position to be hiring a new hc. and at the end of this season it's likely to have several other big schools looking to fill HC spots. not the time you want to get in to a bidding war, only to come up short.

Exactly.

 

[JMSqb11]

Yes, 4-8 HAD to be Kelly's fault.

No way that the problem could have been personnel decisions, assistant coach choices, clock management, game plans, the throw game, charts, and analytics.

All that stuff did not show up until CBJ got to UT and started being underappreciated, and cursing the Neyland crowd.

You don't go from a one loss team to 4-8 just because a Coach leaves.

 

[jakez4ut]

That depends but I agree his standard is likely a good bit below where I would want it.

How long has he had to watch the trends on the OL without acting appropriately. If there is a case for firing him now then it starts with the OL. It is a glaring example of a gross failure to assess a situation and act appropriately.

All true. Maybe we aren't at the same place with regard to how much he's demonstrated his ability or inability to do that? I see too many trends with almost all of them pointing away from him being the answer.

You aren't wrong though I suspect the S&C coach should get another year unless he simply continued with minor changes what the previous one did. If Jones thought "continuity" was a good thing there.... then that points to yet another issue with his ability to assess.

The OL approach simply doesn't work... but it is the one Jones approves. Same with the OC.

I agree with you that his survival probably depends on "evolving" into someone who manages the OC and learns from a great one. If he insists on "his system" run by "someone he trusts" then.... he's hanging himself and the program.



Yeah. I get your point but the better HC's seem to have a particular strength they bring to the table. Saban's is D and specifically DB's. Bama's D is able to do what it does because their DB's play very well.... and for some reason are able to absolutely get away with murder. Saban has coached that. Without Saban's oversight of the D.... Bama probably doesn't have the run they've had in recruiting and on the field.

Petrino brings offense as does Malzahn. The CEO types I can think of include Richt and Miles.

i think you and i are pretty much on the same page, except maybe with the expediency at which he's gone.

if we were on more stable ground administratively, and the market wasn't what it's going to be...i'd be more in favor of...if it needs to be done...do it now.

much of what i stated above hinges on whether or not CBJ can make adjustments to his own style of thinking...honestly i don't know that he is, and i don't see all that much changing, at least not so much so that it's going to change the trajectory of where this ultimately ends.

to me it's a when, not if. and with us...the when is further out than it probably should be.

i don't hate the guy. i really don't. and we'll have a good season this year and next. 8-9 wins, bowl. and that'll be enough to keep things status quo until new AD and chancellor really evaluate and prioritize.

 

[sjt18]

i think you and i are pretty much on the same page, except maybe with the expediency at which he's gone.

We are. Almost exactly.

The problem I see with waiting is that if performance doesn't improve recruiting will go into decline. Considering Jones attrition and injury rates, the roster could very easily fall to what it was after 08 or worse.

For football reasons only, the best time to fire a coach is before he starts to struggle to get talent in recruiting.

 

[jakez4ut]

We are. Almost exactly.

The problem I see with waiting is that if performance doesn't improve recruiting will go into decline. Considering Jones attrition and injury rates, the roster could very easily fall to what it was after 08 or worse.

For football reasons only, the best time to fire a coach is before he starts to struggle to get talent in recruiting.

oh i agree. just don't like our position on the admin side, and timing is awful considering who else may be looking at seasons' end.

besides, it's all a moot point. UT doesn't make this decision after an 8-9 win, potential SEC e championship. can't blame them, really.

but regardless, the biggest issue we have is not Butch Jones, it's the lack of priority being placed on having a truly championship level football program....something i hope changes with the the changing of the guard on The Hill, whether he's retained or not.

 

[DownNDirty]

We are. Almost exactly.

The problem I see with waiting is that if performance doesn't improve recruiting will go into decline. Considering Jones attrition and injury rates, the roster could very easily fall to what it was after 08 or worse.

For football reasons only, the best time to fire a coach is before he starts to struggle to get talent in recruiting.

I agree with that. I've said since day 1 I don't think that Jones can coach. What scares me the most for the program is having to sit and wait on him to fail and show that 9-3 (if he even gets there this year) is his ceiling. Next year IMO we could easily lose game one against Georgia Tech. If that happened the environment around here would be totally toxic. Recruting this year is already not where it needs to be. If we start out on the wrong note next year it's going to really go downhill around here. Next year will not be a great year IMO. We have a few cupcakes like always but we will be at Florida and that could be a loss, Georgia will be a tossup. Bama and LSU will be probable losses. He still hasn't beat Muschamp so there's no guarantee there that he will erase that streak. IF we lost to Ga Tech game one IMO we'll lose 4 or 5 games in the regular season next year.

 

[BeecherVol]

It's year 4. I think we've seen all we need to from him to judge.

This.

 

[sjt18]

I agree with that. I've said since day 1 I don't think that Jones can coach. What scares me the most for the program is having to sit and wait on him to fail and show that 9-3 (if he even gets there this year) is his ceiling. Next year IMO we could easily lose game one against Georgia Tech. If that happened the environment around here would be totally toxic. Recruting this year is already not where it needs to be. If we start out on the wrong note next year it's going to really go downhill around here. Next year will not be a great year IMO. We have a few cupcakes like always but we will be at Florida and that could be a loss, Georgia will be a tossup. Bama and LSU will be probable losses. He still hasn't beat Muschamp so there's no guarantee there that he will erase that streak. IF we lost to Ga Tech game one IMO we'll lose 4 or 5 games in the regular season next year.

This is consistent with his current trajectory though he should beat GT.

It is also dependent on him not figuring it out. If he will accept his role as the "face" of the program and let two SEC caliber coordinators design and run the offense and defense then next year could be to '16 what '98 was to '97.

IMO, the QB regardless of who it is will improve the passing game tremendously. Jones virtually cannot keep Mahoney after the 3 years performance of the OL. A protected QB with Malone, Byrd, and Jennings to throw to... with a good run game as well... could be pretty special.

The D, assuming someone figures out how to keep players healthy, could be a very good unit. Shoop's history is that he usually makes significant improvements between year 1 and two. Hopefully he'll get some LB's that suit him also. He's been hampered IMO by having to run nickel more than he'd like. Ideally, I think he'd like to run 4-3 with a hybrid WLB.

 

[KBVol]

And you know this how?

Track record? Evidence? Projection based on both?

 

[Tin Man]

What is it that makes these Cincy guys so testy?

https://www.google.com/amp/deadspin...-fan-to-go-to-hell-and-get-a-j-1788624714/amp

Get a job!

 

[jakez4ut]

This is consistent with his current trajectory though he should beat GT.

It is also dependent on him not figuring it out. If he will accept his role as the "face" of the program and let two SEC caliber coordinators design and run the offense and defense then next year could be to '16 what '98 was to '97.

IMO, the QB regardless of who it is will improve the passing game tremendously. Jones virtually cannot keep Mahoney after the 3 years performance of the OL. A protected QB with Malone, Byrd, and Jennings to throw to... with a good run game as well... could be pretty special.

The D, assuming someone figures out how to keep players healthy, could be a very good unit. Shoop's history is that he usually makes significant improvements between year 1 and two. Hopefully he'll get some LB's that suit him also. He's been hampered IMO by having to run nickel more than he'd like. Ideally, I think he'd like to run 4-3 with a hybrid WLB.

agreed. the 4-2-5 look isn't what he likes, he's just not had a lot of choices in the matter.

 

[sjt18]

agreed. the 4-2-5 look isn't what he likes, he's just not had a lot of choices in the matter.

That's why I think the LB/S recruiting is interesting. IIRC, he plays a WLB similar to USCe's "spur" position. Different teams have different names but effectively it is a hybrid LB-safety.

 

[jakez4ut]

That's why I think the LB/S recruiting is interesting. IIRC, he plays a WLB similar to USCe's "spur" position. Different teams have different names but effectively it is a hybrid LB-safety.

i saw it mentioned in another thread, but it was brought up that you could see J Jennings and/or Byrd move to Defense. could J Jennings be that hybrid guy? dude is a physical guy that could be a SS/WLB? bring Byrd over to play CB?

with Callaway and a couple of others at WR coming up, could they develop enough to slide in as starters next season?

not sure that's what we need to do, but LB is thin, the secondary is full of ?'s, despite having what looks like a lot of talent...

or maybe you leave Byrd where he is and contemplate moving Jennings? dunno. just thinking out loud.

 

[Ghost of Archvol]

O SH__!! Another damn Yankee, I'am not going to use the word woman, what they don't control already they are working on real hard. So guess we men just need to get out of the way. They will be fighting among themselves soon enough. As to the question at hand about admin. openings, do we not have "home grown" folks good enough for these jobs or is the grass always greener on the other side of the fence??

what the eff does sex or origin have to do with being successful at this job? :no:

 

[sjt18]

i saw it mentioned in another thread, but it was brought up that you could see J Jennings and/or Byrd move to Defense. could J Jennings be that hybrid guy? dude is a physical guy that could be a SS/WLB? bring Byrd over to play CB?

with Callaway and a couple of others at WR coming up, could they develop enough to slide in as starters next season?

not sure that's what we need to do, but LB is thin, the secondary is full of ?'s, despite having what looks like a lot of talent...

or maybe you leave Byrd where he is and contemplate moving Jennings? dunno. just thinking out loud.

Shoops history is that his D's get significantly better in his 2nd year. I think he cut about a TD per game from year one to year two at PSU. At Vandy, scoring D improved 10 pts in the 2nd season then 3 more in the 3rd.

I don't think I'd move Jennings. Byrd.... maybe.