Chris Kyle: American hero or

[YorkVol]

No, I don't think these are good things either, but on their face, they don't involve killing people.

I would say the military has saved more young lives then the music industry has, at least in my small city. Young men and women who make a choice to enlist return home mature, educated and capable citizens (for the most part). Those who decide to just follow the advice of the popular cultural celebrities are getting shot at an alarming rate. I know too many families where one child took the opportunity to join the service and is alive but their sibling opted to stay home and is now dead.

 

[SamRebel35]

I'll play along. The question is where to begin. First, when you enlist, you sacrifice much of your freedom. You are subject to orders. Disobeying orders is not a valid option in most cases. If they deploy you to a hell hole to fight, you can't simply decline because you don't feel like going. Your ass is geared up and sent into combat. When bullets start flying, it's kill or be killed. The only support you have are the brothers right there in that hell with you. They are your family and you will give your life for them, just as they would give their lives for you. That is honor.

Now let's talk about the sacrifice of the family. These men are shipped off to battle and separated from those they love for extremely long periods of time. They know the last time they saw their family may have been the last time they ever saw their family. And the family is also well aware that their loved one going off to war may not come home alive. You live in a state of anxiety hoping they come home safe.

And there will of course be people who argue they chose to enlist. Guess what, if not enough men and women enlisted, they'd reinstate the draft because the military must retain a certain strength. So those who do make the choice, those who do sacrifice their very existence, they're saving the asses of those who don't want to serve their country.

You speak of choice, but a soldier's choices are so very much more limited than those of a private citizen. They sacrifice a traditional life so that others can have that traditional life.

These are good points.

 

[volbeast33]

This is reasonable. I've said it before, I don't find fault with people that regard him as a hero. I despise the unthinking reactions based purely on national pride, but if people engage in thinking before coming to their decision, I'm cool with it.

His work with ptsd people was selfless. I will not dispute that.

I think everyone that joins the military is a hero unless it is shown that they went outside their call of duty.

 

[YorkVol]

This is reasonable. I've said it before, I don't find fault with people that regard him as a hero. I despise the unthinking reactions based purely on national pride, but if people engage in thinking before coming to their decision, I'm cool with it.

His work with ptsd people was selfless. I will not dispute that.

Agree with all of this.

 

[SamRebel35]

I think everyone that joins the military is a hero unless it is shown that they went outside their call of duty.

Ok

 

[agent|orange]

I would say the military has saved more young lives then the music industry has, at least in my small city. Young men and women who make a choice to enlist return home mature, educated and capable citizens (for the most part). Those who decide to just follow the advice of the popular cultural celebrities are getting shot at an alarming rate. I know too many families where one child took the opportunity to join the service and is alive but their sibling opted to stay home and is now dead.

The best SNOIC I ever had was a dude from SE DC. He was in a gang and was caught doing something (he never said). Judge gave him the choice of military service, prison or the morgue.

He chose the Marines and never looked back. Really smart guy but was born into a really bad situation. It's hard to be a Rhodes Scholar when everyone else around you is trying to pull you down and envies any push for success. He personally echoed the "crabs in a bucket" saying.

He was a spectacular Marine and without a doubt service in the military was his savior.

 

[n_huffhines]

You all do realize a Quiet Professional has voiced his opinion twice in this thread about whether or not Kyle was considered a hero?

And that's an opinion I'd take every day of the week and twice on Sunday over anyone else as they have far more standing to talk about it than most on here.

Dude is the most biased military person I've ever talked to.

 

[n_huffhines]

How many lives did he save by taking those 160 lives?

"Countless" according to pro-Kyle, pro-military sources.... which means it could be 0.

Honestly, we don't know if he's a hero or not, really. I think Sam is just questioning it. I don't think he's saying he's not a hero. He's saying we can't blindly accept him as a hero. We don't have the facts.

Kyle clearly has done some heroic things, but has he made the world better? Who can say?

 

[hog88]

He's hardly an unbiased party. Dude is the most brainwashed military person I've ever talked to.

Brainwashed?

 

[n_huffhines]

You have an obvious bias against the military and the police.

What if you started out with a pro-military, pro-police bias, and then you were convinced our military and police forces should be used differently.

Just as biased as people that have always been pro-military?

 

[agent|orange]

He's hardly an unbiased party. Dude is the most brainwashed military person I've ever talked to.

Quote from Max Uriarte (Terminal Lance, 2 tours in Iraq as a grunt):

There is a lot to be said about the Iraq war and a man who is famous for killing 160 (confirmed) people, but the film really chooses to say nothing about it at all. Instead of a morally complex and possibly even abrasive character that we know the real Chris Kyle was, Bradley Cooper plays him with a cuddly, teddy bear-like goodness that I’m not sure makes sense in the grand scheme of things.

Just something I came across that I thought was interesting. I'll probably pick the movie up when it hits RedBox or Netflix.

 

[Carl Pickens]

I don't think it is wise to teach young Americans that all you need to do to gain fame, adoration, and notoriety from an entire nation of your peers is to go to the desert and shoot brown people with a sniper rifle. What he did may have been necessary from a tactical standpoint at the time. Taking lives, even ones that our country deems as evil, should never be done with a flippant or callous attitude. It is still a human person with skin and bones.

lulz....here we go with this brown people BS again. just what does the color of their skin have to do with anything?

 

[hog88]

"Countless" according to pro-Kyle, pro-military sources.... which means it could be 0.

Honestly, we don't know if he's a hero or not, really. I think Sam is just questioning it. I don't think he's saying he's not a hero. He's saying we can't blindly accept him as a hero. We don't have the facts.

Kyle clearly has done some heroic things, but has he made the world better? Who can say?

The why the push from many to tear the mans legacy down? Hero or not that's all personal judgment, what's not up for debate is that he did his duty and answered the call when the bell rang. He did what most could not and even more would not do.

Just give him the respect he earned, nothing more is needed.

 

[Carl Pickens]

"Countless" according to pro-Kyle, pro-military sources.... which means it could be 0.

Honestly, we don't know if he's a hero or not, really. I think Sam is just questioning it. I don't think he's saying he's not a hero. He's saying we can't blindly accept him as a hero. We don't have the facts.

Kyle clearly has done some heroic things, but has he made the world better? Who can say?

The guys that he provided cover for.....the ones that lived and came home

 

[jp1]

"Countless" according to pro-Kyle, pro-military sources.... which means it could be 0.

Honestly, we don't know if he's a hero or not, really. I think Sam is just questioning it. I don't think he's saying he's not a hero. He's saying we can't blindly accept him as a hero. We don't have the facts.

Kyle clearly has done some heroic things, but has he made the world better? Who can say?

Countless could mean zero?

I get playing the other side.....but I have followed your posts in several threads on this topic and you have gone from clueless about most of the facts of this case to seemingly jumping headfirst into the negatives of this case.

Step back a second.....think.....think some more....and then throw aside peoples opinion and see if this is still your same point of view. If it is then fine.

 

[agent|orange]

And a funny observation:

Some of the most rabid pro-military hero worship types are from people who have never served.

Let me be clear: I'm proud of my service and I signed up to defend the Constitution. I was uncomfortable out in town with people flocking to me to "thank me for my service" while they sit at home and vote for stuff that is based on biased party-lines and goes against the Constitution I swore to defend.

The people who joined for adulation are usually the people I wouldn't want to be around when it hits the fan.

 

[Grand Vol]

He's hardly an unbiased party. Dude is the most brainwashed military person I've ever talked to.

You honestly haven't the first ****ing clue what you are talking about. I've known more than a fair share of "brainwashed" types and find them to be far smarter than most with far more analytical and comprehension skills than you'll ever posses.

 

[n_huffhines]

The why the push from many to tear the mans legacy down? Hero or not that's all personal judgment, what's not up for debate is that he did his duty and answered the call when the bell rang. He did what most could not and even more would not do.

Just give him the respect he earned, nothing more is needed.

I totally agree. I can respect him for all of that. But that's not the whole story.

Andrew Jackson was one of my favorite presidents, cause he did so many awesome, badass, libertarian things....but he was awful to the Indians. He's an anti-hero. It's complicated. You have to accept the bad with the good, and reason through it. Jackson was a tyrant in that regard. Judge it through the lens of his experiences and you can rationalize it to some degree, but no matter what there is bad there to accept.

It's OK to do the same with a modern military hero. He's not supposed to be perfect. Bringing up these concerns puts our military efforts into question, moreso than Kyle, IMO. We judge him through the lens of his experiences...what the military made him into. Yeah, he's heroic, but the military made him compromise good in some ways. Maybe we should change that aspect of the military.

Now I'm not saying all of that is 100% on point. I'm just saying that attempting to confront the reality, instead of ignoring the uncomfortable, is the best way to improve things.

 

[hog88]

And a funny observation:

Some of the most rabid pro-military hero worship types are from people who have never served.

Let me be clear: I'm proud of my service and I signed up to defend the Constitution. I was uncomfortable out in town with people flocking to me to "thank me for my service" while they sit at home and vote for stuff that is based on biased party-lines and goes against the Constitution I swore to defend.

The people who joined for adulation are usually the people I wouldn't want to be around when it hits the fan.

You signed up for more altruistic reasons than I. I joined because I was tired of college, out of money and wanted to do something exciting.

 

[n_huffhines]

You honestly haven't the first ****ing clue what you are talking about. I've known more than a fair share of "brainwashed" types and find them to be far smarter than most with far more analytical and comprehension skills than you'll ever posses.

I think you are the one who doesn't know what you're talking about. He's not the "quiet" professional you think he is. You haven't been around that long. Dude used to come in here and brag about how we all sleep safe thanks to him, and would say things that imply what a badass he is, etc. He clearly thinks the military is beyond reproach.

 

[Carl Pickens]

I think you are the one who doesn't know what you're talking about. He's not the "quiet" professional you think he is. You haven't been around that long. Dude used to come in here and brag about how we all sleep safe thanks to him, and would say things that imply what a badass he is, etc. He clearly thinks the military is beyond reproach.

Who are you guys talking about?

 

[agent|orange]

I totally agree. I can respect him for all of that. But that's not the whole story.

Andrew Jackson was one of my favorite presidents, cause he did so many awesome, badass, libertarian things....but he was awful to the Indians. He's an anti-hero. It's complicated. You have to accept the bad with the good, and reason through it. Jackson was a tyrant in that regard. Judge it through the lens of his experiences and you can rationalize it to some degree, but no matter what there is bad there to accept.

It's OK to do the same with a modern military hero. He's not supposed to be perfect. Bringing up these concerns puts our military efforts into question, moreso than Kyle, IMO. We judge him through the lens of his experiences...what the military made him into. Yeah, he's heroic, but the military made him compromise good in some ways. Maybe we should change that aspect of the military.

Now I'm not saying all of that is 100% on point. I'm just saying that attempting to confront the reality, instead of ignoring the uncomfortable, is the best way to improve things.

If the movie is about:

A flawed man that holds a famous/infamous title. An idealist that is worn down by the rigors and mental batterment that is war. In the end, his charity and devotion to his fellow servicemen/women was his own undoing.

I'd be 100% on board. One of the best series about war is one called "Our mothers, our fathers" that is a German-produced (so you can be sure it doesn't glorify war or conflict) that shows the horrors of homeland and Eastern Front atrocities without any pause.

The main character is a kid that starts out as a dreamer and poet but is corrupted by war and death to the point where the boy that you were introduced to on the eve of his enlistment is completely dead.

If it was like that, i.e. a true representation of what war is, I'd be on board. I haven't seen it and, like I said, I have no intent to see it until I can do so at my house for $1 or nothing.

 

[SamRebel35]

lulz....here we go with this brown people BS again. just what does the color of their skin have to do with anything?

The color of their skin is relevant when it is an indication of their geographic location with respect to the United States. I get it, he didn't choose to invade the place, but the government that gave him a license to kill people on their own land did make that choice.

 

[hog88]

I think you are the one who doesn't know what you're talking about. He's not the "quiet" professional you think he is. You haven't been around that long. Dude used to come in here and brag about how we all sleep safe thanks to him, and would say things that imply what a badass he is, etc. He clearly thinks the military is beyond reproach.

He might have been freshly tabbed or even in the Q then. People tend to mellow with time.

 

[agent|orange]

You signed up for more altruistic reasons than I. I joined because I was tired of college, out of money and wanted to do something exciting.

Those were also ancillary reasons I joined. I'm working on my Masters now, all thanks for the 5 years I gave.

Not to discredit the Air Force or Navy, but I joined the Marines for a reason.