Charge Call on Fulky....

[ZZ13]

Well why did he signal a player control charging foul? And why did the announcers say that not one but two fouls were taken off Fulky during the halftime review? That charge call is unmistakable. If it was on Santi it is just as bad since the contact occured at Fulky's feet which was JUST across the three point line and the defender was still moving with one foot in front and one foot inside the line and could not possibly have been ruled as having established a defensive position. He unsuccessfully tried to cut off the path Santi had to take the ball from Fulky on his outside hip. A block is the only possible call on Santi and it was not signaled that way the 20 times I have replayed it.

I used to officiate basketball. The player control signal is used anytime an offensive player commits a foul. Not just the player possessing the ball. It’s a second signal given after the first signal which identifies the actual foul. In this case I would have expected the ref to make three actions. First raise a closed fist and point to Vescovi. Second give the push signal to indicate that Vescovi pushed the opposing player out of his established position. And third give the player control signal to indicate it was a foul on an offensive player. That’s what I would have done had I been calling the game. I felt Vescovi clearly used his left side of his body to push the defender off his established path.

 

[Stoerner Fumbles]

Well why did he signal a player control charging foul? And why did the announcers say that not one but two fouls were taken off Fulky during the halftime review? That charge call is unmistakable. If it was on Santi it is just as bad since the contact occured at Fulky's feet which was JUST across the three point line and the defender was still moving with one foot in front and one foot inside the line and could not possibly have been ruled as having established a defensive position. He unsuccessfully tried to cut off the path Santi had to take the ball from Fulky on his outside hip. A block is the only possible call on Santi and it was not signaled that way the 20 times I have replayed it.

First ref signaled charge pointed to possession reversal. Adam’s walked to him, and asked for the call. I obviously couldn't hear what they said, but first ref emerged with a push gesture, and signaled #25. Dykes was still blathering about Fulkerson and a charge. It looked to me like the one ref error was the hand signal for charge/possession reversal, but the call to the scorer’s table was push on 25. You’re right that there obviously can’t be a charge/pc foul if a player had no possession. It was a push on Santi.

 

[Stoerner Fumbles]

I used to officiate basketball. The player control signal is used anytime an offensive player commits a foul. Not just the player possessing the ball. It’s a second signal given after the first signal which identifies the actual foul. In this case I would have expected the ref to make three actions. First raise a closed fist and point to Vescovi. Second give the push signal to indicate that Vescovi pushed the opposing player out of his established position. And third give the player control signal to indicate it was a foul on an offensive player. That’s what I would have done had I been calling the game. I felt Vescovi clearly used his left side of his body to push the defender off his established path.

That’s helpful. I thought the NCAA required possession of the ball to indicate pc/charge. As I read the rule the PC (hand behind head) signal only appears first if the player has the ball. Anyway, the ref got the steps out of order but did finally indicate push at the table.

 

[ZZ13]

That’s helpful. I thought the NCAA required possession of the ball to indicate pc/charge. As I read the rule the PC (hand behind head) signal only appears first if the player has the ball. Anyway, the ref got the steps out of order but did finally indicate push at the table.

It’s hard to tell because officials are so theatrical about it, but when a player dribbles into and knocks over a defender for the traditional “charge”, the official actually gives an exaggerated emotional push signal (often with just one hand) before they give the player control signal. Then they strut to the scorers table basking in the glory from the power and drama they feel from it.

 

[Special Ed]

We all know officials don't bet on the games they call.
And gravity is just a theory.

 

[firedog28]

Vescovi ran the guy into Fulky.He closed the gap on his defender and bodied him into fulky.I don't know if a foul was called or changed after but this is what I saw.Vescovi is a tough smart guy.

 

[Kas232323]

It was changed at half is what I heard. But replay it and it was a player control charge foul that was signaled and that can only be Fulky. If it was a block on Santi they would have been shooting. No way it could be ruled an illegal screen since Fulky had already used up his dribble and could not advance the ball. They knew if they let the worst charge call in history stand it would be the lead on Sports Center so Pat and the boys did the deed. There is ZERO justification for a call on UT on that play. I have gone over all the replays a bunch as I have stated in another thread and cannot begin to think of their cover story. You had to have an agenda to get that call out of your whistle.

It was called on santi. I was right behind the scorers table and the ref called it in 25…

 

[FranklinVFL]

On the replay it looked to me like the Auburn defender was getting bullied a bit by Vescovi, but nothing worthy of a whistle the way the game was being played on both sides.

Yeah, watching the replay, I saw Vescovi lower his shoulder. Once I found out the call was on Vescovi, I did not have much of a problem with that call.....

However, if you are calling that foul, I saw about 1.3K other calls that were harder fouls then that. the headlock in the first half was one of them....

 

[1Big_Orange_Fan]

Surely the ref that called the charge call will be held accountable.... The worst call ive ever seen by far. Always gonna have missed calls and wrong calls but my goodness! Lol

It was a horrible call and literally the ref must be blind. Worst call I've seen all year is a tossup between it and the call last week against Arky when the player had 2-3 steps out of bounds prior to throwing the ball off JJJ. At least in this game we got one back when the ball went off JJJ's foot in the 2nd half and we got the ball anyway.

 

[Thunder Good-Oil]

I thought that the worst whistles were the inconsistent tripping and slapping the ball calls.

 

[Sudden Impact]

***** This is where I have a Problem with the Refs. This had a potential of being a 3 to 6 point Swing Call Which could have made a difference in the end.
It took a scoring Opportunity away from US. Smith hits the 3 pointer and Auburn get the ball out first.
One call like this in a close game takes the cake and could result in a loss in a close game.
I am sure that the calls were bad for both sides.....Yada Yada Yada.......But the difference makers went in Auburn's favor and yet we won...
Watching these games with these REFs will raise your BP to new heights....
I saw the Jamari Smith 4 point play and I still question if JJ fouled him and if he did that was light compared to other no Calls fouls.

 

[Stoerner Fumbles]

It was a good call. Santi pushed the defender. He was called for a foul. Pat Adams did shoot Kennedy from the grassy knoll though.

 

[VolGee4]

It was a good call. Santi pushed the defender. He was called for a foul. Pat Adams did shoot Kennedy from the grassy knoll though.

This is where I disagree. A few years ago, college basketball went to freedom of movement, which “should” change the way the game is called. They wanted more offense, and the plan was to call defensive players from improperly impeding/holding/grabbing offensive players.

If you watch, Vescovi was attempting to maneuver around Fulky. While he was at an angle with his shoulder, he was cutting. The defensive player was in his grill and made contact with both Vescovi and Fulky. The defensive player was impeding movement. Just the way I see it.

The block/charge was another one that was supposed to drastically change. Once the offensive starts any shot or upward move to the basket, then any contact after that is a block on the defensive player.

As usual with some things, the concept of freedom of movement has fallen off a bit. I was watching a recent game where Jon Crispin (analyst) did talk about it as defenders at the top of the key were hand checking and holding offensive players with no call. The concept has been a bunch of talk with no action. Half of Chandler’s charges would be blocks in the NBA and with the freedom of movement rules.

 

[tennrich1]

I say this with a smile…”I heard Pat Adams and TV Teddy Valentine are starting an academy for basketball officiating”. All in good fun…I know some SEC officials and it’s not a job I would ever want!

 

[jw0595]

I haven't been here in a long time and typically only come over here to get details on plays like this. This is a consistently good forum with any number of knowledgeable posters and respectful, fact-based (most of the time) debates and it has been for a long time. However that happens, you should work hard to keep it.

That being said, the announcers did say after half that Fulkerson now had one foul, so where did the other one go? Also, I've watched several plays from the loss to Ark and does the Williams kid just get charges based on reputation? If they made the calls the same way for both teams, the game would have been a lot closer. To me, charging is like the strike zone: Every umpire may have his own strike zone, but no matter what it is, it should be the same for everyone. One of my friends said he felt the same way about the KY game. Either way, I wouldn't want to play Ark. in the tourney (any tourney). They just ugly up the game and I mean that as a compliment.

And one last thing while I'm prattling. Does anyone remember another 5'8"(ish) PG from NYC named Arnold Bernard? He and a SG named Darryl Smith went to HS, JuCo (somewhere in TX) and Missouri State together in the early 90's. Arnold later played on the Harlem Globetrotters. He looked like he could have eaten Zakia, but other than that, their games were similar in that they simply wreak havoc on both ends of the floor. Zakia has a far better shot, but the main thing is that they contribute so much that is hard to quantify. Love this kid.

 

[livefaith]

I was unable to watch the game. anyone got a GIf or Video of this charge?

It was Vescovi who was intended for the foul. He blasted the defender who took a Fulky style flop and landing into Fulky as well. If there was a bad call the officials just got the number wrong getting #10 instead of #25. I think it was reversed later and corrected.

 

[VolArmy74]

I haven't been here in a long time and typically only come over here to get details on plays like this. This is a consistently good forum with any number of knowledgeable posters and respectful, fact-based (most of the time) debates and it has been for a long time. However that happens, you should work hard to keep it.

That being said, the announcers did say after half that Fulkerson now had one foul, so where did the other one go? Also, I've watched several plays from the loss to Ark and does the Williams kid just get charges based on reputation? If they made the calls the same way for both teams, the game would have been a lot closer. To me, charging is like the strike zone: Every umpire may have his own strike zone, but no matter what it is, it should be the same for everyone. One of my friends said he felt the same way about the KY game. Either way, I wouldn't want to play Ark. in the tourney (any tourney). They just ugly up the game and I mean that as a compliment.

And one last thing while I'm prattling. Does anyone remember another 5'8"(ish) PG from NYC named Arnold Bernard? He and a SG named Darryl Smith went to HS, JuCo (somewhere in TX) and Missouri State together in the early 90's. Arnold later played on the Harlem Globetrotters. He looked like he could have eaten Zakia, but other than that, their games were similar in that they simply wreak havoc on both ends of the floor. Zakia has a far better shot, but the main thing is that they contribute so much that is hard to quantify. Love this kid.

He got them against us and some other schools. That call wasn't going his way vs Kentucky but Arkansas still beat those heathens. The whole series here, while not called on Fulky, it was a foul on Auburn. He was not set in any way and as was pointed out earlier, freedom of movement rules dictate that the defender can't just run into your path at the last second and not be charged with a foul. But Bilas pointed out that freedom of movement is essentially dead because officials refuse to enforce it and instead call player control fouls incorrectly.

 

[GUNTERSVOL]

It was called on santi. I was right behind the scorers table and the ref called it in 25…

Bad call either way. Go slo-mo any way you want and it could not be a foul on him either. Why do you think he signaled a charge which is clearly what he did I froze it when the defender had one foot behind the three line the other off the ground crossing the line between Fulky and Santi who were both clearly across the line when they collided and then both contacted Fulky. Guess he is a rookie to make the call signal he did. I don't recall the behind the head signal being used except for player control fouls, usually just the other part of the call with the arm being thrust forward like a punch.

Wonder who told the announcers the changed the call story which they clearly said right as the second half started.f

Edited to add from a non NCAA document but it might be the same for college... so a rule change maybe???


The player-control foul signal (hand behind the head) will be used to indicate a player-control foul as well as a team-control foul. The punch signal used in the past to indicate a team-control foul was confusing and often used inappropriately. ELIMINATION OF TEAM CONTROL SIGNAL
Author: Kathy Caudill
Created Date: 08/11/2021 09:04:33
Last modified by: Juli Kidd
Title: 2021-23 NFHS Basketball Officials UPDATE


So the signal may be correct even if the call cannot be supported by the facts.

 

[smokey90]

In defense of the ref, although Fulkerson doesn't appear to be moving, upon further review, Fulkerson was actually breathing and his eyes may have shifted too. So, well

 

[cncchris33]

It was technically called on Vescovi. They kept saying Fulky, but I believe it was changed.

With freedom of movement rules, it was still a bad call. The defender didn’t give Vescovi room around Fulky, and Fulky got run over.

This.^^^ The PA announcer was saying "Foul on Vescovi" in the background as Jimmy carried on about the call. Additionally, Noth announcers had a 20-second conversation about it after returning to 2nd half action from halftime.

The fact that so many people still are under the impression that the foul was called on Fulky is crazy.

 

[TNBV]

I was blown away by the call when I thought it was on Fulky. Now with the view from behind
Fulk I think it is quite clear that the defender was shoved into Fulky by Vescovi. Vescovi fully extended his forearm and the defender started to fall backwards and in to Fulkerson. Just the way I see it now.

 

[TNBV]

***** This is where I have a Problem with the Refs. This had a potential of being a 3 to 6 point Swing Call Which could have made a difference in the end.
It took a scoring Opportunity away from US. Smith hits the 3 pointer and Auburn get the ball out first.
One call like this in a close game takes the cake and could result in a loss in a close game.
I am sure that the calls were bad for both sides.....Yada Yada Yada.......But the difference makers went in Auburn's favor and yet we won...
Watching these games with these REFs will raise your BP to new heights....
I saw the Jamari Smith 4 point play and I still question if JJ fouled him and if he did that was light compared to other no Calls fouls.

What? JJJ fouled the dog crap out of Smith. He slapped right across his forearms during a shooting motion.

 

[VolGee4]

What? JJJ fouled the dog crap out of Smith. He slapped right across his forearms during a shooting motion.

Well, JJJ had his arm out before the shooting motion, and Smith went up through the forearm. It’s a classic KD move in the NBA, which changed their rule years ago.

 

[OrangeVolMan]

The announcers made a mistake. The PA said foul on Vescovi. The only place Fulk had a foul was in ESPN’s fantasy land. They invented the call, then took the imaginary call away. It didn’t happen at the scorer’s table.

What the PA announcer says is not official. Not sure how it went down in the books or if it was changed but saying the PA announcer said does not make it official.

 

[Stoerner Fumbles]

What the PA announcer says is not official. Not sure how it went down in the books or if it was changed but saying the PA announcer said does not make it official.[/QUOTE

Difficult audience. The ref signaled a foul on number 25. That’s Vescovi. We could stop there, but the PA gets their info from the scorer’s table. They announced a foul on Vescovi, mostly because it was a foul on Vescovi. I don’t need it to be mailed to me with a notary stamp to understand who the foul is on.