Celtics vs Heat ECF

#601
#601
Vercingetorix said:
The funny thing is that the early Jordan was ripped for being a selfish player and only started winning championships once he started playing with another HOFer and settled down into being a team player. Now LeBron is a damn chump for A) wanting to play with another HOF quality player and B) playing team ball instead of taking over at the end of games "like great players do."

People forget how many times the Bulls' game-winning shots were taken when Jordan made the pass instead of taking the shots. There's this whole cult of Hero Ball (embodied by Kobe) based on Who Takes The Last Shot, Like Jordan Did -- and Jordan didn't always do it. The whole thing is insane.

(And in my opinion, Jordan>>>Magic, and it's not close. I saw all of both of their careers. Where to put Bill Russell and Wilt is speculation, since I didn't see them, but I think it's pretty easy to say that Jordan >> Magic >> Bird >> everybody else in the last 35 years. So far.

(Kareem was a big lumbering tool by the time I started watching basketball, so I can't really evaluate him either. He was great in "Airplane!" though.)
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Judging by his career stats, he's top five. The dude put a 35/16 at age 24! He didn't play with a lot of great players either till Magic/Worthy showed up.

He's also probably the only other player that can compare to LeBron in terms of hype (though it was the late 60's/early 70's) because of A) His talent B) Where he grew up (New York City) C) Who they compared him to (Wilt) D) His college career (The greatest of all time).
 
#603
#603
milohimself said:
What zjc said. The perception of the way basketball is played has changed.
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I'll never forget this: I was watching First Take (yeah, yeah I know), and they spent...I am not kidding you, 30 MINUTES for LeBron giving up the ball to Haslem for an open jumper...even though LeBron did the same thing in the first quarter, he was double team, and Haslem can hit that shot. WTF?
 
#604
#604
Vercingetorix said:
The funny thing is that the early Jordan was ripped for being a selfish player and only started winning championships once he started playing with another HOFer and settled down into being a team player. Now LeBron is a damn chump for A) wanting to play with another HOF quality player and B) playing team ball instead of taking over at the end of games "like great players do."

People forget how many times the Bulls' game-winning shots were taken when Jordan made the pass instead of taking the shots. There's this whole cult of Hero Ball (embodied by Kobe) based on Who Takes The Last Shot, Like Jordan Did -- and Jordan didn't always do it. The whole thing is

(And in my opinion, Jordan>>>Magic, and it's not close. I saw all of both of their careers. Where to put Bill Russell and Wilt is speculation, since I didn't see them, but I think it's pretty easy to say that Jordan >> Magic >> Bird >> everybody else in the last 35 years. So far.

(Kareem was a big lumbering tool by the time I started watching basketball, so I can't really evaluate him either. He was great in "Airplane!" though.)
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Honestly to me Wilt is one of the most overrated players of all times. Basically because the time he played and the size of the guys he played with.
 
#605
#605
Actually thinking about it, LeBron and Kareem are very, very similar in terms of how they were hyped, to the controversial way they left their teams, to not being able to do it (though Kareem did win a title in 1971 with Oscar) and their perceived lack of toughness (LeBron's mental and Kareem's physical).
 
#606
#606
zjcvols said:
I'll never forget this: I was watching First Take (yeah, yeah I know), and they spent...I am not kidding you, 30 MINUTES for LeBron giving up the ball to Haslem for an open jumper...even though LeBron did the same thing in the first quarter, he was double team, and Haslem can hit that shot. WTF?
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It almost makes it impossible to watch any sports shows after a game because of this.
 
#607
#607
VolsFan4Ever-11 said:
Honestly to me Wilt is one of the most overrated players of all times. Basically because the time he played and the size of the guys he played with.
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He was the first athletic freak, maybe other than Willie Mays (and Willie was 5'10/180). I read someone (back in 1960) describe him as a freaking alien. He was Dwight Howard, only three inches taller. In 1960. He was basically LeBron, only if LeBron played basketball in the 1970's.
 
#609
#609
zjcvols said:
He was the first athletic freak, maybe other than Willie Mays (and Willie was 5'10/180). I read someone (back in 1960) describe him as a freaking alien. He was Dwight Howard, only three inches taller. In 1960. He was basically LeBron, only if LeBron played basketball in the 1970's.
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The reason I say he is overrated is because of how much taller is was than everybody (which I know isn't fair) but it would be like Rondo guarding Shaq or Howard. If you can't put up the huge numbers then something iswrong.
 
#610
#610
VolsFan4Ever-11 said:
Honestly to me Wilt is one of the most overrated players of all times. Basically because the time he played and the size of the guys he played with.
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Wilt was in LeBron's position. He couldn't win.

Wilt wanted to be liked. He played basketball because he was supposed to. He was easily a better player than Russell individually, but he was just too good, that he didn't know to be with other "humans". He was called too selfish in his prime, even though he shot 52% in his prime. He just didn't have it in him. And it didn't help he went against arguably the greatest defensive player ever, at his position, playing against four or five HOF every year. But that doesn't matter (to most).
 
#612
#612
VolsFan4Ever-11 said:
The reason I say he is overrated is because of how much taller is was than everybody (which I know isn't fair) but it would be like Rondo guarding Shaq or Howard. If you can't put up the huge numbers then something iswrong.
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I agree. But look at it this way. Kareem was 7'2 (and some same 7'4). And even though it was a little bit different, Kareem averaged 34.6 ppg at his best. That's barely 15 points to Wilt.

Could Wilt be Wilt if he played post merger? Obviously not. But could he still be Dwight Howard???? I think he could.
 
#613
#613
zjcvols said:
I agree. But look at it this way. Kareem was 7'2 (and some same 7'4). And even though it was a little bit different, Kareem averaged 34.6 ppg at his best. That's barely 15 points to Wilt.

Could Wilt be Wilt if he played post merger? Obviously not. But could he still be Dwight Howard???? I think he could.
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I agree with that. Obviously he wouldn't dominate the way he did post merger, but agree he would have still had a helluva career. Just not all time worthy
 
#614
#614
VolsFan4Ever-11 said:
I agree with that. Obviously he wouldn't dominate the way he did post merger, but agree he would have still had a helluva career. Just not all time worthy
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Maybe, maybe not. He could have been Patrick Ewing. People forget, Wilt was athletic enought to A) Be called the greatest volleyball player of his time if he wanted to be B) Play with the Harlem Globetrotters C) Win Big Eight track events...even though he never practiced them. He was a freaking specimen.
 
#615
#615
zjcvols said:
I'd like to get your take on LeBron Verc.
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He's the most talented basketball player I've ever seen, and it's really not close. I still tend to give him the benefit of the doubt a little, considering that at this point in his career MJ still had a sketchy jump shot, so obviously there's still a little time for him to grow.

LeBron does not thus far seem to have the "F you, I am going to put this team on my back and win the damn game by myself if I have to" quality that Jordan did....but hell, neither did Magic. Even Bird passed as often as he took the shot himself. Kobe has that mentality, but it hurts his team as often as it helps.

From afar, he seems like he's probably a little too nice a guy and too sensitive to have had the ARE YOU THE GREATEST EVER, OR ARE YOU A FAILURE? burden hung on him his whole career. He needs to live in a bunker and know nothing about what's being said about him.

If he played every game with the attitude he brought tonight, he'd be right up there at the top. He's probably the best "basketball player" I've ever seen. He is not the best at winning basketball games. There's a big difference.
 
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#617
#617
It was quite great to see those people filing out of the TD Garden with about 6 minutes to go in the game.
 
#618
#618
Vercingetorix said:
He's the most talented basketball player I've ever seen, and it's really not close. I still tend to give him the benefit of the doubt a little, considering that at this point in his career MJ still had a sketchy jump shot, so obviously there's still a little time for him to grow.

LeBron does not thus far seem to have the "F you, I am going to put this team on my back and win the damn game by myself if I have to" quality that Jordan did....but hell, neither did Magic. Even Bird passed as often as he took the shot himself. Kobe has that mentality, but it hurts his team as often as it helps.

From afar, he seems like he's probably a little too nice a guy and too sensitive to have had the ARE YOU THE GREATEST EVER, OR ARE YOU A FAILURE? burden hung on him his whole career. He needs to live in a bunker and know nothing about what's being said about him.

If he played every game with the attitude he brought tonight, he'd be right up there at the top. He's probably the best "basketball player" I've ever seen. He is not the best at winning basketball games. There's a big difference.
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Best analysis I've seen on Lebron :hi:
 
#619
#619
so today Skip Bayless said "last night proved nothing to me about Lebron being clutch. He did what he always does for 3 quarters."
 
#620
#620
bentenn said:
so today Skip Bayless said "last night proved nothing to me about Lebron being clutch. He did what he always does for 3 quarters."
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He's a sport shock jock. I wouldn't put any stock in what he says.
 
#622
#622
bentenn said:
so today Skip Bayless said "last night proved nothing to me about Lebron being clutch. He did what he always does for 3 quarters."
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To me that's just intellectually dishonest, he's so set in his ways and determined to hate Lebron that he refuses to grasp what has been discussed (quite well btw) in the last several pages of this thread. He's a captive of "Hero Ball," a term which I find incredibly accurate, and somehow equates that with greatness.
 
#623
#623
Il Principo said:
To me that's just intellectually dishonest, he's so set in his ways and determined to hate Lebron that he refuses to grasp what has been discussed (quite well btw) in the last several pages of this thread. He's a captive of "Hero Ball," a term which I find incredibly accurate, and somehow equates that with greatness.
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Stephen A Smith came back with something along the lines of it being because of his clutch performance that it wasnt even close in the 4th
 
#624
#624
bentenn said:
so today Skip Bayless said "last night proved nothing to me about Lebron being clutch. He did what he always does for 3 quarters."
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Skip Bayless has always been Lebron's biggest critic. He put a complete game on the court last night. Anybody that says differently is a fool. He didn't have to score 30 more in the 2nd half to put the Celtics away.
 
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