Celtics vs Heat ECF

[zjcvols]

Uh, I haven't read either the Jordan book or any recent Simmons thing. All I know is that MJ is just the specter that hangs in the air every time LeBron plays. And I am old enough to have watched Jordan's whole career, from UNC to the Wizards.

The part of Jordan's personality that he's so celebrated for -- the hyper-competitve assassin on the court -- only existed because the guy is basically a complete ass_hole. Jordan played in basically the last era possible in American culture that you could have it both ways. He's a beloved elder statesman/advertising icon now. It would be totally different if he had to deal now with what modern players have to deal with.

Simmons wrote in his basketball book (great book; and yes I"m a huge Simmons fan) that Kobe did the same things that Mike did, but couldn't get away with in today's age (although everyone forgets this now, for some reason, with Kobe).

It's why I like LeBron more than Jordan. LeBron might be egotistical, but at least he seems like a nice guy. Jordan seems like a complete ass.

 

[zjcvols]

Comparatively speaking, he didn't.

His fall was great, but not like Woods.

I don't know...it was bad. It's a great debate actually. Personally, even though Woods' fault was much worse, I still think LeBron got more heat because everyone wants him to lose. Go back to when Woods came back to Augusta, and the casual fan still wanted Woods to compete.

 

[Vercingetorix]

Agree. But can you imagine Boston coming back? I can't. Not from...THAT.

How long have you been watching sports? Of course I can imagine Boston coming back from that. If LeBron is in assassin mode, then of course, no, they won't win. But that's the first time he's brought a game like that in the playoffs since.....when? 2007? I have to see it happen more than once before I'm going to count on it. And if he doesn't play like that, then it's a tossup game. Boston is going to come with effort.

Or means he was in the mother****ing zone...which he was.

No basketball player in history has ever hit well-defended turnaround jumpshots at the rate LeBron was hitting them tonight on a consistent basis. He's not going to shoot like that on Saturday. We can get into a metaphysical discussion over whether to call it "luck" or "in the zone," but if it's unsustainable, then it's a distinction without a difference.

 

[underscore]

Uh, I haven't read either the Jordan book or any recent Simmons thing. All I know is that MJ is just the specter that hangs in the air every time LeBron plays. And I am old enough to have watched Jordan's whole career, from UNC to the Wizards.

The part of Jordan's personality that he's so celebrated for -- the hyper-competitve assassin on the court -- only existed because the guy is basically a complete ass_hole. Jordan played in basically the last era possible in American culture that you could have it both ways. He's a beloved elder statesman/advertising icon now. It would be totally different if he had to deal now with what modern players have to deal with.

meh...

Ted Williams was about as hated by local media as it come but that did not diminish his performance on the field nor in his place in the history of baseball.

If, by modern standards, that more penetration into the super stars persona life, the better, then if negative "gems" were found and detailed about Jordan is it really thought that his performance on the court would be less? Do you think guys like Jordan give a **** what people really think considering the way he played? Does he need to be liked by everyone to drop 40 on ya when he's bored?

 

[GahLee]

Morally and personally, no. Tiger's failures in his personal life played out for the world to watch in all it's horrible glory.

But, professionally I'd argue what Lebron did two years ago brought the crap storm down onto his own head. I don't agree with the amount of crap he receives, but when you poke fun at the system like he did with his "taking my talents to south beach" disaster of a press conference and not back it up to date, the press pays the bills on this kind of stuff.

It's not close.

Woods has a ton of room to act like a major ass wipe on the course ( winning cures all ) while James is not only expected to win but to carry the team and do it in a certain way.

The parameters in which most think he has to operate in are unrealistic.

Personality wise LeBron seems like an infinitely better person that Woods, even before the the incident with Woods
life going to Hell in a hand basket.

Yet Woods was beloved by most and LeBron has always carried an enormous amount of hate way before the undeniable brilliant move to leave Cleveland.

 

[Vercingetorix]

In other words Jordan was the apex of the sport at its apex.

That's a hell of a way of putting it actually. I'd make it even broader. He was the apex of sports at its apex.

The curtain has been lifted forever. Sports is grubby, soap-opera business now.

 

[zjcvols]

How long have you been watching sports? Of course I can imagine Boston coming back from that. If LeBron is in assassin mode, then of course, no, they won't win. But that's the first time he's brought a game like that in the playoffs since.....when? 2007? I have to see it happen more than once before I'm going to count on it. And if he doesn't play like that, then it's a tossup game. Boston is going to come with effort.



No basketball player in history has ever hit well-defended turnaround jumpshots at the rate LeBron was hitting them tonight on a consistent basis. He's not going to shoot like that on Saturday. We can get into a metaphysical discussion over whether to call it "luck" or "in the zone," but if it's unsustainable, then it's a distinction without a difference.

The NBA? 2004 when the Pistons won the title. Overall? Since I was 3. I started remembering sports since the 1999 World Series. I vividly remember the 2001 World Series and the Super Bowl, Broncos vs. Packers (32 I believe).

And he brought it against Orlando in 2009. He hasn't played that well since 2010 Boston in the EC Semis.

Obviously, and there was a couple lucky shots. But still, he wasn't taking 30 footers. He was getting decent looks. He was just in the zone tonight.

 

[zjcvols]

That's a hell of a way of putting it actually. I'd make it even broader. He was the apex of sports at its apex.

The curtain has been lifted forever. Sports is grubby, soap-opera business now.

It ultimately doesn't matter, but the media wants to tear everything down.

 

[underscore]

It's not close.

Woods has a ton of room to act like a major ass wipe on the course ( winning cures all ) while James is not only expected to win but to carry the team and do it in a certain way.

The parameters in which most think he has to operate in are unrealistic.

Personality wise LeBron seems like an infinitely better person that Woods, even before the the incident with Woods
life going to Hell in a hand basket.

Yet Woods was beloved by most and LeBron has always carried an enormous amount of hate way before the undeniable brilliant move to leave Cleveland.

You guys quickly forget that Tiger made inroads into a sport where, for lack of better vernacular, is a white man's game. When the black man made inroads into basketball, baseball, and football take a look at the "scrutiny" those individuals faced.

Tiger was embraced in golf ultimately because of the revenue he generated for the sport. It was as if the revenue he generated forced forgiveness from the white man.

So, perhaps I have lost sight of the view you guys are looking at Lebron because I remember him being quite loved by the city of Cleveland for the years he was there compared to how "loved" Tiger was -- as long as he was making money for the man. Lebron brought it upon himself by leaving that town in such a public disaster and even if he wins a few rings, it left a bad taste in the mouth for a lot of folks.

 

[VolsFan4Ever-11]

Zjcvols,

With you liking LeBron more than Jordan (which is completely fine by me even tho Jordan was my favorite) just please tell me you're not one of those that thinks he's better or will be better than Jordan

 

[Vercingetorix]

meh...

Ted Williams was about as hated by local media as it come but that did not diminish his performance on the field nor in his place in the history of baseball.

If, by modern standards, that more penetration into the super stars persona life, the better, then if negative "gems" were found and detailed about Jordan is it really thought that his performance on the court would be less? Do you think guys like Jordan give a **** what people really think considering the way he played? Does he need to be liked by everyone to drop 40 on ya when he's bored?

You've got to be kidding me. Ted Williams played when there was basically no TV, even. Personality was totally beside the point. The fans saw him as a tiny figure from the stands, read stories about him in the papers -- at a time when reporters, even when they might have hated him personally, still probably had to deferentially refer to him as "Mr. Williams" in their stories -- and that was about it. Ted Williams played in a time when fans knew your name but other than that you were basically anonymous to everybody other than the people in that locker room. There's just no way to compare that to what modern athletes have to deal with.

I think you could argue that what Michael Jordan had to deal with was closer to Ted Williams's time than it is to LeBron James's time. He was still able to show up, play basketball, act statesmanlike, film commercials, and keep his public persona blandly generic and likable. (He formed the model for the early Tiger, even.) That would be flat-out impossible if his career happened now.

Would it have affected his play on the court? Who the hell knows? He sure as hell wouldn't have the same reputation though.

 

[zjcvols]

You guys quickly forget that Tiger made inroads into a sport where, for lack of better vernacular, is a white man's game. When the black man made inroads into basketball, baseball, and football take a look at the "scrutiny" those individuals faced.

Tiger was embraced in golf ultimately because of the revenue he generated for the sport. It was as if the revenue he generated forced forgiveness from the white man.

So, perhaps I have lost sight of the view you guys are looking at Lebron because I remember him being quite loved by the city of Cleveland for the years he was there compared to how "loved" Tiger was -- as long as he was making money for the man. Lebron brought it upon himself by leaving that town in such a public disaster and even if he wins a few rings, it left a bad taste in the mouth for a lot of folks.

And that's what got people on Tiger's side. We had never seen a "black man" (though he doesn't even consider himself black) do that on a golf course, and everyone rooted for him. It's funny...he was an underdog at first, even though he's the most talented player in PGA Tour history.

LeBron was loved by Cleveland, but you also forget. He was on the front of SI at SIXTEEN YEARS OLD. His nicknames before playing one NBA game: The King, The Chosen One, and the Messiah. There was already people who didn't like him just from that, and the members of the old guard that ripped him for not having a jumper even though he was 21. People RIPPED him for his 2010 Boston performance (even though he just didn't have a good game and his teammates couldn't pick him up, like Gasol did in the NBA Finals in Game 7 for Kobe that same season). Then, withing one hour, he became the biggest villian in sports.

 

[zjcvols]

Zjcvols,

With you liking LeBron more than Jordan (which is completely fine by me even tho Jordan was my favorite) just please tell me you're not one of those that thinks he's better or will be better than Jordan

No, probably not. Jordan is the second greatest player of all-time, to me (I have Magic Johnson #1). Of course, we forget LeBron is 27. Jordan didn't win his title till he was 28. And if my Dad is correct (and I believe he is) people ripped Jordan too, not like LeBron in terms of their game (Jordan was too aggressive, too selfish, couldn't get along with teammates to be successful).

LeBron is one of the ten greatest players of all time, title or not. Nobody can do what he can on the basketball court right now. Nobody except Magic can blend his passing skills and scoring skills. And he's the best defender in the league while being a good rebounder.

What I can't stand about LeBron is two things:

1) He still doesn't move without the basketball like he should.

2) He doesn't have a post game outside of a jumper.

 

[VolsFan4Ever-11]

And that's what got people on Tiger's side. We had never seen a "black man" (though he doesn't even consider himself black) do that on a golf course, and everyone rooted for him. It's funny...he was an underdog at first, even though he's the most talented player in PGA Tour history.

LeBron was loved by Cleveland, but you also forget. He was on the front of SI at SIXTEEN YEARS OLD. His nicknames before playing one NBA game: The King, The Chosen One, and the Messiah. There was already people who didn't like him just from that, and the members of the old guard that ripped him for not having a jumper even though he was 21. People RIPPED him for his 2010 Boston performance (even though he just didn't have a good game and his teammates couldn't pick him up, like Gasol did in the NBA Finals in Game 7 for Kobe that same season). Then, withing one hour, he became the biggest villian in sports.

Personally I like LeBron but I think a lot of people didn't like LeBron starting out because of him being cocky (same way as Kobe) and giving himself nicknames.

 

[zjcvols]

Personally I like LeBron but I think a lot of people didn't like LeBron starting out because of him being cocky (same way as Kobe) and giving himself nicknames.

I look at myself at 18/19. I cannot, even being to fathom, how someone could not be cocky. Look at Harper. Everyone can't stand him because he is "cocky". Dude, I thought I was the ****, and I couldn't even hit .300 in high school, let alone being called the next Ken Griffey Jr. at 16 freaking years old.

And remember, the age we are in. This is where you can see Bryce Harper blow kisses in the minor leagues. Or watch LeBron during a high school game. Nobody had as much hype as LeBron coming into the league, and not only has he lived up to it...he might have exceeded it...and it's still not good enough.

 

[VolsFan4Ever-11]

No, probably not. Jordan is the second greatest player of all-time, to me (I have Magic Johnson #1). Of course, we forget LeBron is 27. Jordan didn't win his title till he was 28. And if my Dad is correct (and I believe he is) people ripped Jordan too, not like LeBron in terms of their game (Jordan was too aggressive, too selfish, couldn't get along with teammates to be successful).

LeBron is one of the ten greatest players of all time, title or not. Nobody can do what he can on the basketball court right now. Nobody except Magic can blend his passing skills and scoring skills. And he's the best defender in the league while being a good rebounder.

What I can't stand about LeBron is two things:

1) He still doesn't move without the basketball like he should.

2) He doesn't have a post game outside of his jumper.

I've got Jordan 1 and Magic in my top 3.

I honestly think LeBron will crack the top 5 and maybe top 3 when it's all said and done.

 

[VolsFan4Ever-11]

I look at myself at 18/19. I cannot, even being to fathom, how someone could not be cocky. Look at Harper. Everyone can't stand him because he is "cocky". Dude, I thought I was the ****, and I couldn't even hit .300 in high school, let alone being called the next Ken Griffey Jr. at 16 freaking years old.

And remember, the age we are in. This is where you can see Bryce Harper blow kisses in the minor leagues. Or watch LeBron during a high school game. Nobody had as much hype as LeBron coming into the league, and not only has he lived up to it...he might have exceeded it...and it's still not good enough.

I agree completely, hell I know I would be cocky if I were that good at that age. I guess media and the rest of society doesn't think of what they would be like in that position.

 

[Vercingetorix]

So, perhaps I have lost sight of the view you guys are looking at Lebron because I remember him being quite loved by the city of Cleveland for the years he was there compared to how "loved" Tiger was -- as long as he was making money for the man. Lebron brought it upon himself by leaving that town in such a public disaster and even if he wins a few rings, it left a bad taste in the mouth for a lot of folks.

The bigger arc of LeBron James's career -- and the way that he's constantly carved up on all the sports shows -- has nothing to do with the way he left Cleveland, or the BS he participated in when he went to Miami. The thing hanging over him his whole career has been whether he could be as good as Jordan. That's what he's been compared against, from day one. Even in Cleveland.

The only other figure in North American sports history who's ever come into his sport with the expectation that he would be the best ever, and that anything short of that would be a disappointment, is Wayne Gretzky. And he got to do that in Edmonton, Alberta in 1980.

 

[zjcvols]

I've got Jordan 1 and Magic in my top 3.

I honestly think LeBron will crack the top 5 and maybe top 3 when it's all said and done.

It's all about perception. Watch. If LeBron puts up 35 in the clinching game of the NBA Title, in 20 years, nobody will talk about 2010 Boston or 2011 Dallas. Look at Kobe. Before the Gasol trade, the media absolutely ripped Kobe to shreds. It was semi Barry Bonds. He makes the Finals, and people wonder if he can do it. Then, he gets a little bit of luck (Mo Williams going completely cold and Garnett's injury) and Bryant wins the title. Nobody brings up that he got Shaq traded or Phil Jackson fired. Nobody brings up him wanting Andrew Bynum's ass shipped out. Hell, nobody even brings up his rape trial, or even his stink bomb 6-24 in Game 7 of the Finals.

In basketball (fair or not), it's all about titles. Nobody cares about your work before if you get one. Nobody brings up Jordan punching teammates and being a complete ******* where he got two coaches fired and Phil basically had to beg him to let his teammates be involved.

 

[zjcvols]

The bigger arc of LeBron James's career -- and the way that he's constantly carved up on all the sports shows -- has nothing to do with the way he left Cleveland, or the BS he participated in when he went to Miami. The thing hanging over him his whole career has been whether he could be as good as Jordan. That's what he's been compared against, from day one. Even in Cleveland.

The only other figure in North American sports history who's ever come into his sport with the expectation that he would be the best ever, and that anything short of that would be a disappointment, is Wayne Gretzky. And he got to do that in Edmonton, Alberta in 1980.

That's the thing. It's incredible. He has been as good as anybody could reasonbly expect...and it's still not good enough. In today's media age, where it's about bringing people down, and with the vitroil fans have for athletes now, it's incredible LeBron hasn't mentally broke down yet.

 

[zjcvols]

I agree completely, hell I know I would be cocky if I were that good at that age. I guess media and the rest of society doesn't think of what they would be like in that position.

We can't imagine the pressure. It's easy to be in that position. Think about the most pressure filled sports moment of your life. Okay, now imagine, 85% of people want you to fail, legends of your sports say you have to step up, and 25K fans are screaming obscenities at your throat, all while your legacy as a player (and whether fair or not, as a person) is staring you at your face...and you are 27 years old, while trying to compete that task. That's what LeBron dealt with tonight.

 

[zjcvols]

I'll use a personal example (and it's lame):

As a sophomore, our best player fouled out in OT. I had a decent roll going, and coach decided to put the ball in my hands. Technically, I was suppose to pass, but I had four inches on the guy, and I was going to get the ball in the high post with no double team.

Anyway, I was semi-shaking and had a hurting pit in my stomach BEFORE THE PLAY. I ended up getting the ball and made the shot (on a layup because the guy idiotically fell for my shake to the right) right as the buzzer sounded. Anyways, after the game, I literally had to be myself for two minutes because I felt like throwing up after all that pressure, and it was in a high school game with 100 people watching and one media person there who wrote a paragraph for the Daily Times.

Now, all that LeBron (and other players) have dealt with? Nuh-uh...couldn't handle it.

 

[Vercingetorix]

No, probably not. Jordan is the second greatest player of all-time, to me (I have Magic Johnson #1). Of course, we forget LeBron is 27. Jordan didn't win his title till he was 28. And if my Dad is correct (and I believe he is) people ripped Jordan too, not like LeBron in terms of their game (Jordan was too aggressive, too selfish, couldn't get along with teammates to be successful).

LeBron is one of the ten greatest players of all time, title or not. Nobody can do what he can on the basketball court right now. Nobody except Magic can blend his passing skills and scoring skills. And he's the best defender in the league while being a good rebounder.

What I can't stand about LeBron is two things:

1) He still doesn't move without the basketball like he should.

2) He doesn't have a post game outside of a jumper.

The funny thing is that the early Jordan was ripped for being a selfish player and only started winning championships once he started playing with another HOFer and settled down into being a team player. Now LeBron is a damn chump for A) wanting to play with another HOF quality player and B) playing team ball instead of taking over at the end of games "like great players do."

People forget how many times the Bulls' game-winning shots were taken when Jordan made the pass instead of taking the shots. There's this whole cult of Hero Ball (embodied by Kobe) based on Who Takes The Last Shot, Like Jordan Did -- and Jordan didn't always do it. The whole thing is insane.

(And in my opinion, Jordan>>>Magic, and it's not close. I saw all of both of their careers. Where to put Bill Russell and Wilt is speculation, since I didn't see them, but I think it's pretty easy to say that Jordan >> Magic >> Bird >> everybody else in the last 35 years. So far.

(Kareem was a big lumbering tool by the time I started watching basketball, so I can't really evaluate him either. He was great in "Airplane!" though.)

 

[zjcvols]

The funny thing is that the early Jordan was ripped for being a selfish player and only started winning championships once he started playing with another HOFer and settled down into being a team player. Now LeBron is a damn chump for A) wanting to play with another HOF quality player and B) playing team ball instead of taking over at the end of games "like great players do."

People forget how many times the Bulls' game-winning shots were taken when Jordan made the pass instead of taking the shots. There's this whole cult of Hero Ball (embodied by Kobe) based on Who Takes The Last Shot, Like Jordan Did -- and Jordan didn't always do it. The whole thing is insane.

(And in my opinion, Jordan>>>Magic, and it's not close. I saw all of both of their careers. Where to put Bill Russell and Wilt is speculation, since I didn't see them, but I think it's pretty easy to say that Jordan >> Magic >> Bird >> everybody else in the last 35 years. So far.

Hero Ball has ruined basketball. I watched the 1988 NBA Finals, and the Lakers actually ran a play in the final seconds of Game Six instead of going one-on-one with Magic for a 20 foot jumper (and Kareem was not fouled!)

I can respect that, since you watched them play. I would take Magic because of his ability to not only pass, but score, rebound, defend (early in his career) and the fact his teammates LOVED playing with him.

The reason is...I don't know. Basketball is the only sport where the media/fans think you have to play it one way for 44 minutes, then another for the final 4.

If LeBron had stayed in Cleveland, and didn't win a title, he would be crucified. If he wins three titles in Miami in the next four years, well, you couldn't do it by yourself, even though the best player you played with in Cleveland was Mo Williams, and you took the Cavs to the 2007 NBA Finals with Zydrunas Ilguaskas as your second best player. WTF?

I'd like to get your take on LeBron Verc.

 

[VolsFan4Ever-11]

We can't imagine the pressure. It's easy to be in that position. Think about the most pressure filled sports moment of your life. Okay, now imagine, 85% of people want you to fail, legends of your sports say you have to step up, and 25K fans are screaming obscenities at your throat, all while your legacy as a player (and whether fair or not, as a person) is staring you at your face...and you are 27 years old, while trying to compete that task. That's what LeBron dealt with tonight.

Yep it's honestly ridiculous to think what media and fans put on these guys.