Cbj

[sjt18]

It's less about the W-L record than what we looked like most of the year while losing - blown out too many times while looking completely impotent on offense and almost as bad as under Sal on defense. Also, I'm convinced that if Malzahn walked into the exact same roster CBJ found here at UT he would have won more games with the exact same players (since you bring up Mizzou their coach would have probably done better as well). That's what the issue is - some of us us feel that our talent level was not as poor as the performances we saw on the field and that the coaches did not use what talent they had properly (and therefore there is suspicion that even when we do load up with better talent how much better are we really going to be if the quality of coaching does not improve).

Malzahn yes. Not as sure about Pinkel. He has a pattern not totally dissimilar from what Shula had at Bama. He has a couple of mediocre to bad seasons followed by a good year or two then back again. His system seems to take a while to learn with some of it having to be OJT.

I have little doubt that Malzahn would have a) hired a top shelf DC and b) found a way to win 6-8 games.

 

[BeardedVol]

Wait, do y'all even like Coach Jones? I really can't tell.

Why do you feel that CBJ deserves zero criticism?

 

[TGVol]

Why do you feel that CBJ deserves zero criticism?

People on these types of forums are so binary. Either you support their beloved messiah (whoever happens to be at the time) 100% (meaning only worship and no criticism whatsoever) or you are the enemy. Very frustrating - but it goes with being a sports fan.
Last night out of curiosity I looked at some Ohio State forums to see how they are reacting after loss to Clemson and it was not very different from our forum (is that comforting?.
They want both their OC and DC fired (after 10-2 season), but Urbie is still beyond criticism (until first loss to Michigan after which he will suddenly develop health issues like he did at UF). :biggrin:

 

[BeardedVol]

1-1...Jones beat Franklin in a bowl two years ago
Posted via VolNation Mobile

I didn't know CBJ was coaching at UT two yars ago...

 

[Burger]

I didn't know CBJ was coaching at UT two yars ago...

He played Vandy in a bowl at cincy and won.

 

[TGVol]

He played Vandy in a bowl at cincy and won.

Was that the same year he got blown out by Dooley?

 

[BeardedVol]

He played Vandy in a bowl at cincy and won.

And that's relevant towards his record at UT how? I don't care how many times he beat Vandy while at another school. I only care what he does from the day he took the HC job at UT. His record at Cincy got him the job, but it's what he does now that he has the job that's important. So far, that's not been much. I'm willing to give him time, but we didn't see consistent improvement from game to game on any measurable level this season, and if that's the case again next year, then I'm willing to go on record saying that he is not the solution for UT.

 

[BeardedVol]

Malzahn yes. Not as sure about Pinkel. He has a pattern not totally dissimilar from what Shula had at Bama. He has a couple of mediocre to bad seasons followed by a good year or two then back again. His system seems to take a while to learn with some of it having to be OJT.

I have little doubt that Malzahn would have a) hired a top shelf DC and b) found a way to win 6-8 games.

I agree about Pinkle. He'd have had a hard time stepping into UT's situation. The reason he did well is that he had several years to implement his system, and had decent enough talent to make it work for the better part of the season.

Malzahn looks like he's going to be one of those coaches who can do something with anything. He won't always be on top, but he'll probably always be competitive.

 

[TGVol]

Malzahn looks like he's going to be one of those coaches who can do something with anything. He won't always be on top, but he'll probably always be competitive.

Agreed - I see Malzahn as a younger version of Steve Spurrier meaning he will give the rest of the SEC headache for years to come.

 

[Other_Guy]

No. Inconsistency with bad coaching. You keep trying to make this a player only issue. It isn't. The talent was there to win 7 or at least 6 games. And wins STILL don't cancel out bad losses. If UT is to EVER rise to where I hope we all want to see them... they need a coach that wins all games where he has the better roster, most of the ones where the rosters are equal, and at least some of the games where he's undermanned. In short, UT needs an elite coach. What we saw from this staff this year wasn't even good much less "elite".

Yes they were. It was not quite known yet but they were. Their O was already bad then lost its QB during the game... but Jancek managed to make the back up who had little preparation look like a Heisman candidate. They had an OL go down and multiple defensive players.

I HAVE ANSWERED THIS QUESTION AD NAUSEUM. I have answered it so many times that a guy put me on "ignore" the other day because I keep repeating the same answer(s). They underachieved the talent the had. The roster was not great. It was not a 8+ win roster vs that schedule. But it also wasn't a roster that should have been rolled that badly by Mizzou, Aub, Bama, and Oregon. It is not a roster that should have struggled with So Alabama. It is not a roster that with 2 weeks of prep and competent coaching should have lost to Vandy AT HOME.

What more do you really want? I have gone into more specific details all over this board.



We should have expected him to go 6-6. We should have expected him to not look completely outclassed by other coaches even with the talent disparities he had to deal with. We should have been able to hope that with solid coaching 7 was attainable.

"Little time"? He had all spring, August, then 12 weeks of the season to prepare for Vandy.

Look, you can turn a blind eye all you want but what we saw from the coaches this fall looked eerily like the waning years of Fulmer and also what we saw from Dooley. Tight games against what should have been homecoming fodder. Losses to lesser opponents. Blowouts to the better teams on the schedule.

If we can't expect better coaching then there was very little sense in changing to start with going all the way back to Sanders' firing.

I didn't really see your other posts, so this is a good reply.

However, you're crazy if you think this team is/was good enough to keep up with Mizzu Bama Auburn or Oregon. Completely insanse. No one is accepting blowouts, but we can't be blind by the idea that every poor team gets blown out except the great UT.

Vandy won because we had atrocious QB play. What in the world should Jones have done differently?

How can you say "expect 6-6" but say be consistent earlier? If you wanted consistency, they beat Vandy and lose to SCjr... meaning 5-7. Which did you want? Either way this team was a 5-7 team. I hoped for more but I was not unreasonable.

 

[Other_Guy]

No. Inconsistency with bad coaching. You keep trying to make this a player only issue. It isn't. The talent was there to win 7 or at least 6 games. And wins STILL don't cancel out bad losses. If UT is to EVER rise to where I hope we all want to see them... they need a coach that wins all games where he has the better roster, most of the ones where the rosters are equal, and at least some of the games where he's undermanned. In short, UT needs an elite coach. What we saw from this staff this year wasn't even good much less "elite".

Yes they were. It was not quite known yet but they were. Their O was already bad then lost its QB during the game... but Jancek managed to make the back up who had little preparation look like a Heisman candidate. They had an OL go down and multiple defensive players.

I HAVE ANSWERED THIS QUESTION AD NAUSEUM. I have answered it so many times that a guy put me on "ignore" the other day because I keep repeating the same answer(s). They underachieved the talent the had. The roster was not great. It was not a 8+ win roster vs that schedule. But it also wasn't a roster that should have been rolled that badly by Mizzou, Aub, Bama, and Oregon. It is not a roster that should have struggled with So Alabama. It is not a roster that with 2 weeks of prep and competent coaching should have lost to Vandy AT HOME.

What more do you really want? I have gone into more specific details all over this board.



We should have expected him to go 6-6. We should have expected him to not look completely outclassed by other coaches even with the talent disparities he had to deal with. We should have been able to hope that with solid coaching 7 was attainable.

"Little time"? He had all spring, August, then 12 weeks of the season to prepare for Vandy.

Look, you can turn a blind eye all you want but what we saw from the coaches this fall looked eerily like the waning years of Fulmer and also what we saw from Dooley. Tight games against what should have been homecoming fodder. Losses to lesser opponents. Blowouts to the better teams on the schedule.

If we can't expect better coaching then there was very little sense in changing to start with going all the way back to Sanders' firing.

I didn't really see your other posts, so this is a good reply.

However, you're crazy if you think this team is/was good enough to keep up with Mizzu Bama Auburn or Oregon. Completely insanse. No one is accepting blowouts, but we can't be blind by the idea that every poor team gets blown out except the great UT.

Florida was not the same team to lose to Vandy, sorry.

Vandy won because we had atrocious QB play. What in the world should Jones have done differently?

How can you say "expect 6-6" but say be consistent earlier? If you wanted consistency, they beat Vandy and lose to SCjr... meaning 5-7. Which did you want? Either way this team was a 5-7 team. I hoped for more but I was not unreasonable.

 

[TGVol]

I
However, you're crazy if you think this team is/was good enough to keep up with Mizzu Bama Auburn or Oregon. Completely insanse.

Why? This team proved it could stay close with top 10 teams (should have beat UGA, and did beat SCjr). So why would it be unreasonable to expect that with better planning/preparation/coaching it should not have done the same vs other top 10 teams (and let's not even talk about UF and Vandy)?

 

[CountVolcula]

Why? This team proved it could stay close with top 10 teams (should have beat UGA, and did beat SCjr). So why would it be unreasonable to expect that with better planning/preparation/coaching it should not have done the same vs other top 10 teams (and let's not even talk about UF and Vandy)?

Whaaaaa?

No, no , no

It was lack of talent

Wait, it was Georgia and SC off days

Wait, umm, I meant it was umm, not SC, it was superior coaching

Hold on, wait, that means if it was superior coaching. ****!!

 

[sjt18]

I didn't really see your other posts, so this is a good reply.

However, you're crazy if you think this team is/was good enough to keep up with Mizzu Bama Auburn or Oregon. Completely insanse. No one is accepting blowouts, but we can't be blind by the idea that every poor team gets blown out except the great UT.

Great coaches step up. Even Dooley in year one made a game of it with Bama and a BETTER Oregon team before the talent deficit caught up with him at the half. Still many criticized their lack of adjustments over those losses... yet excuse Jones for not even showing up for a half in any of those games.

Keep up with? Mizzou yes. The rest had more significant talent disparities BUT could have at least been respectable and competitive for awhile. The kind of coaching UT will need to rise is capable of doing that.

Vandy won because we had atrocious QB play. What in the world should Jones have done differently?

For starters, he could have not played not to lose. He said several times he believed he had to manage the game for the win. He expressed no confidence in his players though they were better than the ones he faced.

If you are looking for specifics. He could have capitalized on what Dobbs did best. He could have lined up in that double RB formation with a TE on one side, an extra OT on the other, with two WR's spread to the sidelines... and basically done to Vandy what Auburn did to UT.

How can you say "expect 6-6" but say be consistent earlier? If you wanted consistency, they beat Vandy and lose to SCjr... meaning 5-7.

Nope. I and others looked at the USCe roster BEFORE THE SEASON and saw opportunity. The match ups were good for UT. USCe had a significantly weaker schedule. They had the advantage of staff tenure. But they had roster issues just as significant as the ones Jones faced. They replaced all of the LB's and DB's. Some of the replacements were Fr.

If the coaching were consistent with what we saw vs USCe and UGA... Vandy is a win, Mizzou is MUCH closer, and at least one of the overmatches looks competitive for at least awhile.

Which did you want? Either way this team was a 5-7 team. I hoped for more but I was not unreasonable.

If you said then or now that 5 is acceptable or that 6 was more than a mediocre result... then you are just making "unreasonable" excuses.

 

[TGVol]

If the coaching were consistent with what we saw vs USCe and UGA... Vandy is a win, Mizzou is MUCH closer, and at least one of the overmatches looks competitive for at least awhile.

You forgot UF - that definitely should have been a W this year with better coaching (especially after we injured their QB early in that game).

 

[sjt18]

BTW, the play of USCe as the season went on is how good/great coaching and development looks with regard to young/inexperienced players. Late in the season, they no longer play like rookies because they aren't rookies anymore.

The development of their youth compared to UT's lack of development makes for a good contrast to support my concerns about the coaching staff's performance this year.

 

[sjt18]

You forgot UF - that definitely should have been a W this year with better coaching (especially after we injured their QB early in that game).

Agree. I personally give Jones a bit more of a pass on that one. He wasn't getting what he wanted out of Worley so he took a chance on Peterman. It turned out to be a mistake that probably cost them the game. Leaving him in as long as he did was unwise as well.

But it was the kind of gutsy risk that the "right" UT coach will take. It just didn't work.

 

[KBVol]

Was that the same year he got blown out by Dooley?

Same year that he won 10 games and a conference championship ... yes.

 

[KBVol]

People on these types of forums are so binary. Either you support their beloved messiah (whoever happens to be at the time) 100% (meaning only worship and no criticism whatsoever) or you are the enemy. Very frustrating - but it goes with being a sports fan.
Last night out of curiosity I looked at some Ohio State forums to see how they are reacting after loss to Clemson and it was not very different from our forum (is that comforting?.
They want both their OC and DC fired (after 10-2 season), but Urbie is still beyond criticism (until first loss to Michigan after which he will suddenly develop health issues like he did at UF). :biggrin:

Cuts both ways. You're on the "he can't coach" side, you see anyone pointing out anything that he's done well as worshipping. Your post was intellectually dishonest.

For the record, I support Butch, didn't think he coached the team well at all during the 4 game loss stretch and I also have big questions about how well Butch and his staff developed players.... and I'm a little concerned ... but also see a limited roster sprinkled with walkons and freshmen ... and I also see the great, not good, things he's done off the field. See how that works? Balance.

 

[sjt18]

Was that the same year he got blown out by Dooley?

That's probably a little unfair. Had Hunter not been injured, the trajectory of Dooley's time at UT would have been very different. They're probably a 8 win team that year and might have actually made a decent run last year. UT was a very potent O at the point they played Cincy and far more talented.

In the end, the way things went exposed Dooley's weaknesses sooner rather than later. For that we can all be thankful.

 

[KBVol]

That's probably a little unfair. Had Hunter not been injured, the trajectory of Dooley's time at UT would have been very different. They're probably a 8 win team that year and might have actually made a decent run last year. UT was a very potent O at the point they played Cincy and far more talented.

In the end, the way things went exposed Dooley's weaknesses sooner rather than later. For that we can all be thankful.

A little unfair?

 

[sjt18]

Cuts both ways. You're on the "he can't coach" side, you see anyone pointing out anything that he's done well as worshipping. Your post was intellectually dishonest.

Not sure he's said anything specific but has positively responded to posts of mine where I have.

Who has said "he can't coach"? Can you name even one person who has actually made that final conclusion yet? If you can... it isn't many. Most of us are just looking at the performance so far and what it indicates to this point. It isn't very good.

So the intellectual dishonesty seems to be claiming that someone holds a position they don't actually hold.

Sorry TG if I stepped out of bounds here.

For the record, I support Butch, didn't think he coached the team well at all during the 4 game loss strength and I also have big questions about how well Butch and his staff developed players.... and I'm a little concerned ... but also see a limited roster sprinkled with walkons and freshmen ... and I also see the great, not good, things he's done off the field. See how that works? Balance.

The balance still does not tilt in his favor at this point. I support him and want NOTHING more than for him to be successful. In many ways, he's the ideal HC for UT. But he still has to do the job and do it well. He didn't this past season "on the field".

 

[sjt18]

A little unfair?

Yes. He faced many of the same defensive players. The ones who were replaced after were replaced with more talented players as Sophs and Fr that he had on the 13 roster as upperclassmen. Either they are FAR more talented than most of you want to admit and it is unfair to criticize him for not being able to score on them... or it isn't unfair at all.

It was also not a totally uncompetitive game. It was a 7 point contest until 5 minutes left in the first half. UT got a score then blocked a Cincy FG attempt to make it 28-14. UT stretched it to 21 on the first drive of the 2nd half and didn't look back.

 

[TGVol]

Same year that he won 10 games and a conference championship ... yes.

You mean that JV conference championship (otherwise how do you explain getting blown out by Dooley and historically bad UT team)?

 

[TGVol]

Cuts both ways. You're on the "he can't coach" side, you see anyone pointing out anything that he's done well as worshipping.

Not at all. I think CBJ has done a phenomenal job in recruiting and getting the fan base excited and energized (which is very important). But he has so far not shown what many have predicted before the season - which was that we was going to be able to coach up in games and have a more disciplined team (penalties were just as bad as the year before and our offense was the worst I have seen in 30 years of watching UT football). So it's a mixed bag for me - I want to believe I'm wrong about Bajakian and Jancek but this past year is not giving me confidence they will get it done (but I will be very happy if they start kicking ass and it turns out I was wrong about them).