Capitol Punishment

#1

VolunteerHillbilly

Spike Drinks, Not Trees
Joined
Sep 26, 2005
Messages
40,785
Likes
15,227
#1
Maybe this is too much of a hot button issue but since it looks like Tennessee is going to execute two people tonight I thought someone might be interested in the subject. I probably wouldn't stop to pee on either of these guys if they were on fire but I'm also not a death penalty supporter. Don't get me wrong, I'm not an active opponenet of capital punishment. I just generally think it is too expensive, takes too long, and probably on some level is barbaric.

I do see the other side of this debate but I'm not sure that streamlining the process by removing due process restraints is a raod we need to embark upon. I also don't think you can justify barbarous action by pointing out that what your victim did was far worse by comparison. JMO
 
  • Like
Reactions: InVOLuntary
#2
#2
(VolunteerHillbilly @ Jun 27 said:
I also don't think you can justify barbarous action by pointing out that what your victim did was far worse by comparison. JMO

What do you mean by this?

Death sentences are carried out in a more humane way than how the victims died. No headlines I have seen point to someone being brutally murdered by lethal injection.

And this is probably not going to be a good topic to discuss because of the differences in opinion. But I'll go ahead and start the fire.

We aren't carrying out enough sentences! Let em pay for what they did.

And this new law that some states are passing that can sentence repeat child molesters to death. AMEN. et them die too.

The most extreme and violent criminals don't have the right to be alive anymore. Get rid of them.
 
#3
#3
(USAF_Vol @ Jun 27 said:
What do you mean by this?

Death sentences are carried out in a more humane way than how the victims died. No headlines I have seen point to someone being brutally murdered by lethal injection.

Yeah. I do not disagree with you. I guess on a moral level we all have to decide when, if ever, it is appropriate to take another person's life. I know people who claim that if they were presented with deadly force they would rather be killed than have to kill someone else. I think my instinct for self preservation runs a little deeper than that. I'm sure this is something that comes up in the military context vis a vis conscientious objectors.

In the case of criminals we do have the capability to keep these people segregated from society forever, so there is a way to protect society short of killing a human. Therefore, it gets down to punishment and retribution. I'm just not convinced that it is necessary to kill people as a form of punishment.

Again, you will not see me carrying an anti-dealth penalty placard at a busy intersection during rush hour. I'm just not sold on this.
 
#4
#4
(VolunteerHillbilly @ Jun 27 said:
I just generally think it is too expensive, takes too long, and probably on some level is barbaric.

Life in prison ain't cheap either. After the apeals process, if they don't get it reversed, express to death row. Time to check out buddy.
 
#5
#5
(USAF_Vol @ Jun 27 said:
What do you mean by this?

Death sentences are carried out in a more humane way than how the victims died. No headlines I have seen point to someone being brutally murdered by lethal injection.

And this is probably not going to be a good topic to discuss because of the differences in opinion. But I'll go ahead and start the fire.

We aren't carrying out enough sentences! Let em pay for what they did.

And this new law that some states are passing that can sentence repeat child molesters to death. AMEN. et them die too.

The most extreme and violent criminals don't have the right to be alive anymore. Get rid of them.


I agree. If it does not deter crime than why does China have 6 times the population of the United States, but only one sixth the crime rate???? :dunno:
 
#6
#6
Personally, I could care less whether or not punishments either deter crime or provide some form of correctiveness to the convict. The only questions should be, is the punishment just? And, is the punishment cruel or unusual? Also, 'cruel and unusual' should be viewed in the historic context of which it was written.
 
#7
#7
(overseasorange @ Jun 27 said:
I agree. If it does not deter crime than why does China have 6 times the population of the United States, but only one sixth the crime rate???? :dunno:

Just goes to prove that state sponsored human rights violations are more of a deterrent than the death penalty.
 
#8
#8
(GAVol @ Jun 27 said:
Just goes to prove that state sponsored human rights violations are more of a deterrent than the death penalty.


State Sponsored Human Rights Violations(In China) usually = The death penalty.. :cry:
 
#9
#9
I just never understood where the government can say a citizen killing another for whatever reason is wrong but the government killing a person is fine. We can get into the whole religious talk but from a legal standpoint how can one killing be legal and another not?
 
#10
#10
(USAF_Vol @ Jun 27 said:
What do you mean by this?

Death sentences are carried out in a more humane way than how the victims died. No headlines I have seen point to someone being brutally murdered by lethal injection.

And this is probably not going to be a good topic to discuss because of the differences in opinion. But I'll go ahead and start the fire.

We aren't carrying out enough sentences! Let em pay for what they did.

And this new law that some states are passing that can sentence repeat child molesters to death. AMEN. et them die too.

The most extreme and violent criminals don't have the right to be alive anymore. Get rid of them.

I have often viewed myself as somewhat of a bleeding heart on this issue. But, as with most issues, I have a hard time being an extremist. I agree that if it is beyond doubt that the ones being put to death are guilty, kill them...cheaply.

My only hesitation is my lack of faith that our legal system always has the right person. (No offense to our esteemed lawyers on the Nation).

As a father of 2, I would have no problem killing the child molesters. Just make them sit in the general prison population for a while. I hear they get some of what they deserve there.
 
  • Like
Reactions: GroverCleveland
#11
#11
First of all I think that someone who killed someone should be killed the exact same way the killed the other person to show them what they did. I know that might seem harsh but do they deserve any better? Second of all child molesters should be put to death. What they do is just sick.
 
#12
#12
My wife's great grandfather was shot and killed in a home invasion by some meth head trying to get some quick money. My wife's GG was 84 and legally blind but managed to get off 5 shots, one grazing the guy. Most of the family wanted lethal injection for this guy. But you know he is one who is now having to sit in jail and think about what he did for the rest of his life. Killing him would be the easy way out. Just as we always say suicide is, so is capital punishment. Now not all can feel guilt-ridden while in jail. But the whole concept of prison, jail, etc. is to repay a debt to society for basically taking something or someone away from society. Personally I think these scum that cannot be reformed ought to be out there paving the roads, building housing projects, etc. You know the jobs that lower skills can do and these guys can do for free? With a sentence in years the courts need to tag a monetary value of labor or services needing to be performed as well. This way they can repay something back to the system.
 
#13
#13
Killing them is the easy way out? Your vision of hell must be pretty rosy and/or your perception of our very relaxed prison system is way off.
 
#14
#14
(therealUT @ Jun 28 said:
Killing them is the easy way out? Your vision of hell must be pretty rosy and/or your perception of our very relaxed prison system is way off.

Your perception of redemption and forgiveness is skewed as well. Just because they are killed doesn't mean they're going to hell. Nice assumption on your part but a little off.

If you'd read a little closer, I mention harsher prisons. I also mention that sitting in cells mulling over the ones they murder is not exactly an easy issue to deal with for many. I also said not all feel that way.

I offered a personal situation and knowledge of a few instances I am aware of. You offered some knee-jerk comments without comprehending the whole post. it goes a long way in a discussion and debate to actually fully take in what the other person wrote before picking one piece and overreacting to it.
 
#15
#15
My opinion is to get rid of them as fast as we can.

True, the system can be sometimes screwed up. But that is sometimes.

Letting them "think about what they did". Yeah, if that's what they do. Don't want to sound cold, but I don't think those bastards think about what they did to their poor victims.

Child molesters. Heh Heh, Prison justice. What are you gonna do :dunno:
 
#16
#16
That's why I say many and not all. Most juries and/or judges can grasp how a convicted murderer is dealing with his crime and potential sentence. They take that into consideration as well. Don't forget the plea bargaining where they skip having a trial and go straight to jail if they plead guilty and give up all info, especially if others are involved.
 
#17
#17
Oh I know how the system works and doesn't work from my own experiences :thumbsup:
 
#20
#20
Tough subject. *Long Read*

The issue of corrective justice in legal philosophy distinguishes between two principal theories of punishment: utilitarian and retributive.

Utilitarian perspective, then, capital punishment is justified if it

1.) prevents the criminal from repeating his crime;

2.) deters crime by discouraging would-be offenders. For, both of these contribute to a greater balance of happiness in society.

*For, both of these contribute to a greater balance of happiness in society.

Problems

1.) The burden of proof is on the defender of capital punishment to show that the same effects could not be accomplished with less severe punishment, such as life imprisonment. The goal of utilitarianism is to reduce as much unhappiness as possible and this entails imposing the least severe of two possible punishments when everything else is equal.

Cesare Beccaria (1738-1794) argues this point in On Crimes and Punishment, according to Beccaria, capital punishment is not necessary to deter, and long term imprisonment is a more powerful deterrent since execution is transient.

2.) A second and more basic problem with utilitarian defenses of capital punishment involves the fact gathering process. Since the utilitarian is making a factual claim about the beneficial social consequences of capital punishment, then his claim should be backed by empirical evidence.

3.) A third problem with utilitarian justifications of punishment, as pointed out by contemporary political philosopher Adam Bedeau, concerns the ratio of innocent lives saved per execution. Eventually it must be determined how many executions justify the saving of one innocent life.

The retributive notion of punishment in general is that

1.) as a foundational matter of justice, criminals deserve punishment, and

2.) punishment should be equal to the harm done.

One of the most early written statements of capital punishment from the lex talionis or "eye for an eye" perspective is from the 18th century BCE Babylonian Law of Hammurabi:

If a builder builds a house for someone, and does not construct it properly, and the house which he built falls in and kills its owner, then that builder shall be put to death. If it kills the son of the owner, then the son of that builder shall be put to death.

Problems

1.) Punishment may be inadequate. For example, if a terrorist or mass murderer kills ten people, then taking his single life is technically not punishment in kind.

2.) Foundational beliefs in general have the unfortunate consequence of appearing arbitrary.

3.) Critics of capital punishment argue that the true basis of retributive justifications of capital punishment is not at all foundational, but instead rooted in psychological feelings of vengeance.

Other Arguments

John Locke's famous defense of capital punishment has both a retributive and utilitarian component. Locke argued that a person forfeits his rights when committing even minor crimes. Once rights are forfeited, Locke justifies punishment for two reasons:

(1) from the retributive side, criminals deserve punishment, and,

(2) from the utilitarian side, punishment is needed to protect our society by deterring crime through example. Thus, society may punish the criminal any way it deems necessary so to set an example for other would-be criminals. This includes taking away his life.

Opposed to Capital Punishment

1.) Capital punishment should be abolished since it is undignified, inhumane, or contrary to love. Corporal punishment, such as flogging, and extreme types of capital punishment, such as burning at the stake, are no longer accepted practices because of their indignity. By parity of reasoning, capital punishment should be abolished too.

2.) A second direct attack on the practice of capital punishment is that, at least at present, it is virtually impossible to apply death sentences fairly. People on death row are typically poor and thus could not afford the best defense at their initial trial. They are also disproportinately Afro-American or Hispanic which raises larger issues of racial inequality in the US. As ethnic minorities, they are also likely to receive more strict judgments from juries than their white counterparts who commit the same crime.
 
#22
#22
Given the number of unjustly jailed inmates freed by the Innocent Project, I have mixed feelings about CP. Some people are so inhumane, CP is the only guarantee they won't continue their killing rampages, some, even by their own admission.
 
#25
#25
Advertisement

Back
Top