Butch's Offensive System hated?

#76
#76
I think we should try to polish up our intermediate passing game,( 10-15 yd). When we scored our last 3 points against Bama we appeared to be in synch on that particular drive. I simply don't know why we could not do it again in that game. We can develop some simple pass blocking schemes utilizing Kelly and Hurd. Need to try a trick play or two and work on roll outs. Just basic,simple, things that can help this team play better against the better pass rushing teams in the future. I, for one, like many other posters just can't stand seeing UT continually attempting to rush the ball when it just isn't there. Improve the passing game and the running game will open up. We just can't allow our opponents to load the box daring us to throw because every DC we see the rest of this year is going to be applying that strategy. We have to prove that we can make those pass plays and be respected for doing it.

I agree. I would love to see the passing game improve; look at what the offense did against TA&M. However, a big part of that was simply trying to take advantage of TA&M's secondary (I expect Bama to take a turn "exposing" that this weekend).

I was really excited to see both Hurd and AK in formation at the start of the game last Saturday, but they abandoned that as soon as Bama adjusted. Even with Hurd as a HB, the line started collapsing somewhere around the third play if I recall correctly. Also, we're a bit hamstrung at the TE position. Inconsistent TE performance and the need to assist the O-Line has crippled the versatility of that position, too.

Here's a "theory" on why they keep running Hurd up the middle. Hurd is a beast; the guys is tough as nails. I think they're trying to use him to soften up the defensive front in an attempt to give our O-Line a small advantage by around halfway through the 3rd quarter. In the meantime, if the opposing defensive gives them something, they try to take advantage of it. If that's true, I don't think it's working as well as what they want, but what else can be done? AK is a stud, and he definitely needs more touches---the young man can literally be utilized all over the field. But, how do you that without wearing him out and/or opening him up to an increased possibility for injuries? At this point, I feel the "cheap sweater" analogy coming on again.

As you point out, without a good passing game, options are limited. And without controlling the line of scrimmage, it's almost impossible to have a good passing game.
 
#77
#77
On most pass plays, there are receivers running routes down the field, across the middle, slants, etc. All the passes that VN says we need to make. But, JD is either unable or unwilling to make the throws down the field.

Maybe the OC is telling him to never attempt to those receivers, but I seriously doubt it.

At times you'll see wide open guy's, yes. But the majority of the plays are still curls and screens
 
#78
#78
Why do I see so many fans hating Butches Power Spread Option Offense? Why are they asking for a Power I? Spread option seems to be the trend in college football. I remember when Fulmer and David Cutclif ran the I at Tennessee. Everyone complained it was outdated and too conservative. Mayer was running the spread option at FL and TN fans wanted TN to run it.
Now we run the spread option and the more I learn about it the better I like it. It is amazingly flexible in the variety of ways you can attack the defense. At the same time it doesn't require elite athletes to be successful.
When we ran the I you had to outman the opponent head up. If we couldn't win the LOS the offense died. Zone blocking and the stretch plays allow a small quick lineman to outposition the defender.
I understand the advantage of the I in short yardage. Just because zone blocking and stretch plays are the staple in the spread doesn't mean you have to use it in short yardage. Even from the shotgun you can run with a lead blocker and use man blocking schemes. We have done it on occasion.
So for the volnation members hating Butche's system is it the system that you are opposed to or the play calling?

Please don't make this another discussion about Debord.

First things first , spread teams are as diverse as dog breeds. Oregon is a spread that is predicated off of the zone read. All plays work off of the zone.
Tebows Gators was the wishbone spread out with Tebow actually playing a fullback QB hybrid and spreading the extra player to another offensive option. Malzone's system
was the wing T all spread out. Peyton ran a 'passing' spread most of his pro career. The Fun and Gun was a balanced spread. There are many more variations.

This stuff about us being a spread option team ?? We are not an option team or a zone read team by any stretch of the imagination. You see option and zone plays
a very small percentage of the time and other plays are not built around these concepts. I am 99% sure that some of these 'reads' that JDs is missing , are not reads at
all but designed handoffs. I cant fathom why else a guy as bright as JD would miss so many high school reads. We are no more a 'zone' team or an 'option' team than we are
a 'wheel route' team. You see that a a few times a game too.

The way this offense is supposed to work is simple..ha ha. It is predicated on a layered west coast passing attack , based out of the Rich Rod spread philosophy. The west coast is
is read in layers rather than left to right. It requires a super accurate QB that makes quick decisions and with all the crossing routes, alot of anticipation. Think Joe Montana here.
Guys like Manning, Brady, Breez all are guys that have been successful with these systems or aspects of it. This is not the kind of QB JD is.

Since JD cant hit intermediate passes in this system, the defense puts a lid on the top and attacks the gaps with numbers. They hold the middle and then sell out to
the sidelines or react the the run wherever it goes. If there is no run, they attack the QB right through the gaps.

Power running means having more hats at the point of attack. Because we cant hold the middle of the field and the defenses are attacking downhill, we never have more hats at the point of attack.
We cannot be considered a 'power running' team.

The blocking scheme lends itself to this. This passive zone system has a lineman get in the path of the first man in his zone. The pass blocking and run blocking techniques are similar
At no point do the linemen fire out and hit the defenders. This can be done in man or zone. I dont like this passive system and as long as it is in place it will continue to make
linemen and coaches look back.

So to say that these 'spread' systems dont require top notch athletes in this case is not accurate. You need a pure west coast passer and elite receivers. An interesting thing happens when we get
far behind ( except with Bama ) . They run the zone reads . Actual zone reads. The defense stretches to the sidelines and opens the tackle box for the running game.
This is what JDs cannot accomplish with intermediate passing...but he can with his legs.

So if we were a pure zone read team, I think our offense would dominate from the opening whistle. Simplify the pass tree, turn the QB loose running , and attack the tackle box running.
Play action ! yes Butch , this mystical play is legal !

The I formation would give us power running ( more hats at the point of attack ) Set your 240 lb back back 4 yards deeper and hammer the line. Again that mystical play action!
This style would open the boot game for JD. Plenty of RPO options. The I opens up the option game and we have a guy that could be a great TE.

All in all what I would like to see happen here is to put the players in positions that accentuate their abilities instead or trying in vain to perfect a system.
Run the QB early and often. Simplify the passing tree. Play action. Vince Young, Tim Tebow...its been done.
 
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#79
#79
Why do I see so many fans hating Butches Power Spread Option Offense? Why are they asking for a Power I? Spread option seems to be the trend in college football. I remember when Fulmer and David Cutclif ran the I at Tennessee. Everyone complained it was outdated and too conservative. Mayer was running the spread option at FL and TN fans wanted TN to run it.
Now we run the spread option and the more I learn about it the better I like it. It is amazingly flexible in the variety of ways you can attack the defense. At the same time it doesn't require elite athletes to be successful.
When we ran the I you had to outman the opponent head up. If we couldn't win the LOS the offense died. Zone blocking and the stretch plays allow a small quick lineman to outposition the defender.
I understand the advantage of the I in short yardage. Just because zone blocking and stretch plays are the staple in the spread doesn't mean you have to use it in short yardage. Even from the shotgun you can run with a lead blocker and use man blocking schemes. We have done it on occasion.
So for the volnation members hating Butche's system is it the system that you are opposed to or the play calling?

Please don't make this another discussion about Debord.

I prefer a situational offense that adjusts to variables such as player skill sets, opposing players, field position, score, field conditions, etc.

Why not use the I formation as a change up, especially near the goal line on 3rd and short. Why not throw a little wishbone or air raid offense to throw off the defenders and shake things up. You can have JG work on Wishbone and QD work on a Pro Set and Air Raid while SJ trains for trick plays and working from the I formation.
 
#80
#80
I prefer a situational offense that adjusts to variables such as player skill sets, opposing players, field position, score, field conditions, etc.

Why not use the I formation as a change up, especially near the goal line on 3rd and short. Why not throw a little wishbone or air raid offense to throw off the defenders and shake things up. You can have JG work on Wishbone and QD work on a Pro Set and Air Raid while SJ trains for trick plays and working from the I formation.

agree 100% .
 
#81
#81
Anybody noticed or paid any attention to we're averaging >30 points a game with this busted system and busted OC?
 
#82
#82
Anybody noticed or paid any attention to we're averaging >30 points a game with this busted system and busted OC?

Yeah but when the big plays aren't there ...nothing happens. Do you realize that we start scoring when we start running the QB and in effect become a different type of offensive team than from the ineffective jumble that starts the game? Why not be who you are from the start ?
 
#83
#83
I love our offensive potential but we are overly predictable. Run on first...gain 2 yards up the middle, something silly on second down, 3rd down we have to make up for the silly second down play...complete pass 2 yards from a 1st down, punt. Rinse/Repeat. Never go for it on 4th down even when it might make sense to do so and never (no matter what the circumstance) try a 2 point conversion to win the game. I believe Helen Keller could coordinate the opponents defense successfully against us. Someone please hire Gary Rankin to run our offense pls.
 
#84
#84
I love our offensive potential but we are overly predictable. Run on first...gain 2 yards up the middle, something silly on second down, 3rd down we have to make up for the silly second down play...complete pass 2 yards from a 1st down, punt. Rinse/Repeat. Never go for it on 4th down even when it might make sense to do so and never (no matter what the circumstance) try a 2 point conversion to win the game. I believe Helen Keller could coordinate the opponents defense successfully against us. Someone please hire Gary Rankin to run our offense pls.

Just curious, did you happen to notice the first Vol offensive play from scrimmage against Bama went to the left with Hurd as lead blocker for a following Kamara with the rock?
 
#86
#86
Just curious, did you happen to notice the first Vol offensive play from scrimmage against Bama went to the left with Hurd as lead blocker for a following Kamara with the rock?

Sure there are no absolutes, but I'm not completely off-base here. I don't have the hard data but I'd be interested to see our tendencies on paper and if i'm wrong I'll be the first to admit it.
 
#88
#88
its not the system at fault its the coaching strategy. Jones is playing field position football, which is 1 step back from field goal football. When they get the ball at the 20 their goal is to advance 20 yards and not loose the football so they can punt them inside the 10. If the game is tied or close they will take no chances during these possessions. The strategy is the same regardless of who they are playing, which is why games with easy opponents are so close. Its the style of play not the offense they are running.
 
#89
#89
The style of offense doesn't impact this current team as much as the overall lack of execution this season does which includes players and coaches.

Turning the ball over repeatedly, dropping passes, getting manhandled on the O line, missing reads on the option plays or wide open receivers are on the players.

Not having back up O linemen even remotely ready to play or demanding accountability from the same players making the same mistakes over and over is on the coaches. Throw in some pretty poor fundamental philosophies being taught by the coaching staff to the WR and O line groups and it makes it even tougher on the players.

Finally, play calling that goes from "wow" to "what the hell is he thinking"( sometimes in the course of the same game) and it's no wonder this offense has been a disjointed mess all season.
 
#91
#91
I really could have sworn you said:



and you even said "repeat" on this one to make sure everyone knew what you were referring to.



Not you? Maybe the user IDs don't match. Must have been someone with a similar ID.

Okay, you caught me. Congratulations.

My original comment was about the read option, not QB designed runs. I was originally thinking that is what lonelawyer was referring to since he was not specific on QB runs. A large portion of his runs historically have been on the read option, not true QB runs. That's where my mind was when responding. This offense is based on the read option, not true QB runs. We obviously mix those in, but it isn't the focus of the offense.

I think it was fairly obvious I was referring to the read option, but feel free to take it out of context. :)
 
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#92
#92
I prefer a situational offense that adjusts to variables such as player skill sets, opposing players, field position, score, field conditions, etc.

Why not use the I formation as a change up, especially near the goal line on 3rd and short. Why not throw a little wishbone or air raid offense to throw off the defenders and shake things up. You can have JG work on Wishbone and QD work on a Pro Set and Air Raid while SJ trains for trick plays and working from the I formation.
I think you may be getting a little carried away. While I agree we should have a power formation for short yardage situations (i.e., Power I), we shouldn't get carried away. Introducing that many formations and different offensive takes a lot of time and would lead to mental mistakes IMO.
 
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