Butch's Offensive System hated?

#1
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81Orange

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#1
Why do I see so many fans hating Butches Power Spread Option Offense? Why are they asking for a Power I? Spread option seems to be the trend in college football. I remember when Fulmer and David Cutclif ran the I at Tennessee. Everyone complained it was outdated and too conservative. Mayer was running the spread option at FL and TN fans wanted TN to run it.
Now we run the spread option and the more I learn about it the better I like it. It is amazingly flexible in the variety of ways you can attack the defense. At the same time it doesn't require elite athletes to be successful.
When we ran the I you had to outman the opponent head up. If we couldn't win the LOS the offense died. Zone blocking and the stretch plays allow a small quick lineman to outposition the defender.
I understand the advantage of the I in short yardage. Just because zone blocking and stretch plays are the staple in the spread doesn't mean you have to use it in short yardage. Even from the shotgun you can run with a lead blocker and use man blocking schemes. We have done it on occasion.
So for the volnation members hating Butche's system is it the system that you are opposed to or the play calling?

Please don't make this another discussion about Debord.
 
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#2
#2
The answer is probably neither.

Very few have any actual idea what the linemen actually do.

You posed a very well thought out question that involves more football knowledge than the majority of tv talking heads, Xbox, or fantasy football provide.

It's easier to tell you to go away.
 
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#3
#3
OP I dont have the knowledge to answer your question the way you want. I know Alabama now runs an offense almost identical to ours.
 
#4
#4
"Football is two things, it's blocking and tackling. I don't care about formations or new offenses or tricks on defense. You block and tackle better than the team you are playing, you win." Vince Lombardi

Everyone on volnation would do well to take heed to Mr Lombardi.

When I hear CBJ say things like, " it's a line of scrimmage game " it makes me think our head coach is on the right track. Hasn't arrived to coaching greatness, but is on the right track.
 
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#6
#6
I like our over all scheme. It is effective against the vast majority of the teams that we play, and will continue to be effective going forward. The only real complaint I have is when we are in short yardage situations. Makes me shake my head when we are in the shotgun on fourth and inches for example.

Doesn't really matter what your scheme is against Bama. A team that has pulled 4 straight number 1 classes will almost always win. Formerly they're defense was built to stop pro-style offenses. Then Saban recognized that the smaller, faster offenses gave his defense problems because his LB's and DE's were too heavy and slow. He adjusted, and is now much faster at these positions.
 
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#10
#10
I don't know how to start new post, so just wanted to drop this in. Playing LSU for the the second time that year, and I think we should of blew them out of the game with our passing, we played it close all the way till the end.

We had the best team in the SEC that year and should of played Miami for the BCS championship. That old Nick Saban, rolled the dice and we knocked their starting QB out of the game and they turned in their best game of the year. We played average that game and had two costly turn overs.

Just saying, I'm tired of everyone complaining about this team. They give all they can on the field. We have one of the best teams in the SEC, and if healthy could give anybody a run for their money. History does repeat itself, I feel very good about the direction we are going.

Now for "VOL NATION" we need to stand up and support our team. We don't get paid for coaching and let me say, nobody is perfect, but if we unit as one than we are strong. Back our players and coaches.

We still have football to play, we can still make it to the championship. We might be down a few players but we are not done with this great year. (Still to come)

LETS FINISH WITH THIS TEAM, ITS BEEN AWHILE SINCE THE BIG ORANGE FELT THIS, SO STAY THE COURSE, GO VOLS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I want TN vs Nick in Atlanta, The End
:clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping:
 
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#12
#12
12GAGE said:
I don't know how to start new post, so just wanted to drop this in. Playing LSU for the the second time that year, and I think we should of blew them out of the game with our passing, we played it close all the way till the end.

We had the best team in the SEC that year and should of played Miami for the BCS championship. That old Nick Saban, rolled the dice and we knocked their starting QB out of the game and they turned in their best game of the year. We played average that game and had two costly turn overs.

Just saying, I'm tired of everyone complaining about this team. They give all they can on the field. We have one of the best teams in the SEC, and if healthy could give anybody a run for their money. History does repeat itself, I feel very good about the direction we are going.

Now for "VOL NATION" we need to stand up and support our team. We don't get paid for coaching and let me say, nobody is perfect, but if we unit as one than we are strong. Back our players and coaches.

We still have football to play, we can still make it to the championship. We might be down a few players but we are not done with this great year. (Still to come)

LETS FINISH WITH THIS TEAM, ITS BEEN AWHILE SINCE THE BIG ORANGE FELT THIS, SO STAY THE COURSE, GO VOLS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I want TN vs Nick in Atlanta, The End
:clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping:
Click to expand...

Pass this on to BJ and team, we still believe!!!
 
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#13
#13
The two biggest problems with the offense: It seems to be very difficult for offensive linemen to learn and put into practice their responsibilities. It appears you have to have the intellect of a chess master and the footwork of a Broadway dancer to handle your role. Second, it only works if you REALLY run the QB, which we sometimes are afraid to do.
 
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#15
#15
GBOTango said:
Nothing wrong with our offense, just have to have the talent to run it effectively.
Click to expand...

This, this is the answer to your question OP.

The offense is incredibly flexible, and UA proved it can be run effectively . . . with the right personnel and given the time required to learn it. The scheme requires nearly as much reading by the linemen as is required of the QB. As soon as one guy drops a block or misses a push, the rest of the play unravels like a cheap sweater.

The Vols are decimated at the O-Line position, and the team needs way more depth at that position (and others) than they currently have. The program needs the ability to redshirt linemen while they train their bodies and learn the system, which includes working with the QBs and the other personnel they'll likely be on the field with in their future (next man up sounds nice, but teams are built with chemistry among specific units). The required depth simply isn't there yet---even though we all want it to be.

The question I ask (rhetorically), is what can be done in the meantime to compensate?
 
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#16
#16
Kind of a blanket statement to suggest that fans who hate the offense just simply want the I formation as you say. Or, suggesting it's an old outdated way of thinking.

Those of us who hate or have issues with Butch's philosophy (whatever that is), simply are as confused as the players trying to execute said philosophy.

They have NO identity as an offense. They do nothing well. You HAVE to have an identity in order to establish who you are as an offense based on what you do well. They have neither. Neither a run first (with success) nor a pass first (with success)

There is no fundemental change in having an idenity whether you line up in a goal line offense, I formation, wing T, veer, wishbone, the list goes on.

It all starts upfront and you HAVE to establish the line of scrimmage to do anything. You also have to figure out a way to scheme the most effective way that fits the personnel.

The biggest issue that is fans who (hate) the offense have legitimate concerns. They look like they have no clue what they are doing or trying to do at least half the time.

More than anything, the problems are with the line of scrimmage. They aren't winning the battles up front. Not only are they losing the battle up front they seem to hardly breath on the opponent.

The blocking scheme is what is wrong for starters. They start every play at a disadvantage with the techique (lack there of) they are using. They start every snap on their heals. They lose the battle before the play even starts.

Going to a more simplified, or traditional, fundemental offense could help them tremendously. Having them downhill block (man) and use a lead blocker from backfield in whatever formation you can think of changes everything. Even the attitude.

I truly believe we are witnessing coaching deficiencies from the lack of offesive production (consistency) more than any other reason. I think Butch is stubborn tp the core (possibly ignorant) on how to adjust and adapt. That's what I'm afraid of and I've seen nothing that changes my mind about him, yet....so far, I've seen players with heart taking over games and making plays (Dobbs, Kamara, etc). It's great to have players like that and UT hasn't had that grit in a long time. But, soon, luck runs dry.....being exposed is being exposed.

The opposing coach staff last week exposed nearly every deficiency on Tennessee staff or ability to coach at a high level. I DO believe that injuries played a big role. The game would have been closer but don't think UT would have won at all.

It seems to me that Butch gets so caught up in all this fancy XBOX creativity. But doesn't do the fundamental things well at all....
 
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#17
#17
And thanks to the players who won't finish the season who put in the work through spring, summer and fall. You guys gave your all. Go Vols!
 
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#18
#18
81Orange said:
Why do I see so many fans hating Butches Power Spread Option Offense? Why are they asking for a Power I? Spread option seems to be the trend in college football. I remember when Fulmer and David Cutclif ran the I at Tennessee. Everyone complained it was outdated and too conservative. Mayer was running the spread option at FL and TN fans wanted TN to run it.
Now we run the spread option and the more I learn about it the better I like it. It is amazingly flexible in the variety of ways you can attack the defense. At the same time it doesn't require elite athletes to be successful.
When we ran the I you had to outman the opponent head up. If we couldn't win the LOS the offense died. Zone blocking and the stretch plays allow a small quick lineman to outposition the defender.
I understand the advantage of the I in short yardage. Just because zone blocking and stretch plays are the staple in the spread doesn't mean you have to use it in short yardage. Even from the shotgun you can run with a lead blocker and use man blocking schemes. We have done it on occasion.
So for the volnation members hating Butche's system is it the system that you are opposed to or the play calling?

Please don't make this another discussion about Debord.
Click to expand...

I prefer pro-style but honestly I don't care what we run as long as we execute it well. Just seems like we have a lot of square pegs the coaches are trying to ram into round holes. Jalen Hurd for instance should pretty much never run off tackle let alone inside without a FB. If I were him I would be pretty upset that my talents were being handicapped by an offensive scheme not suited to my abilities.
 
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#19
#19
VolFan4Life87 said:
I prefer pro-style but honestly I don't care what we run as long as we execute it well. Just seems like we have a lot of square pegs the coaches are trying to ram into round holes. Jalen Hurd for instance should pretty much never run off tackle let alone inside without a FB. If I were him I would be pretty upset that my talents were being handicapped by an offensive scheme not suited to my abilities.
Click to expand...

I think Jalen bounces his run outside a lot of the time because the blocking is so poor on the line. Some runs are designed off tackle, but he bounces a lot of runs too.
 
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#21
#21
I like the O,698 yards were enough against TAM sans the TO's. Jalen Hurd is on course to break UT rushing records in 3 years but this O is not a fit for him per most on here. He also has missed a game. If he makes a 18 yard run people say he should have went all the way. If he get hit behind the LOS and gains 3 yards ppl say is YPC is less than it should be. I have a feeling he will be appreciated more 5 years after he's gone.
 
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#22
#22
GBOTango said:
Nothing wrong with our offense, just have to have the talent to run it effectively.
Click to expand...

Talent is there when they are all healthy this applies especially to the OL. The offense was pretty effective against 3 ranked opponents in Florida, Georgia and A&M because the Vols had a relatively healthy OL. CBJ just hasn't recruited the depth yet to have 4 starters down and run all the sets they want, much less block them effectively. Getting depth at OL is a harder problem to fix than about any other position because it takes most guys into their third year on campus to be truly SEC caliber, read redshirt sophomores.
 
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#23
#23
I like the scheme. It's the play calling. Like only throwing to the flats for 1 yard and expecting the WR to gain 10. Bama was all over it and we never adjusted. How bone headed can one be? And as others have said, we need to go power on short yards. I would like to see these coaches be a little more diverse with play calling and how they use their personal. We don't seem to do a very good job of keeping defenses guessing and no one respects the deep ball. For the sake of keeping the defense honest, you have to mix it up and at least try, otherwise, you can setup plays. I feel we lack in that too. Screens and curls can only get you so far. The run game could benefit from split backs with the talent we have there and various other sets. I don't understand these coaches
 
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#24
#24
lonelawyer said:
The two biggest problems with the offense: It seems to be very difficult for offensive linemen to learn and put into practice their responsibilities. It appears you have to have the intellect of a chess master and the footwork of a Broadway dancer to handle your role. Second, it only works if you REALLY run the QB, which we sometimes are afraid to do.
Click to expand...

Let me address the QB running which you say we are afraid to do at times.

This is not how the offense works. Debord / Jones doesn't tell Dobbs "hey, don't run the ball against Bama, just hand it off". The offense is based off reading keys - typically the DE. If the DE crashes down, Dobbs should pull it and run. If the DE stays at home, he hands it off.

It is all about repetition and developing instincts and learning your keys. I've noticed lately Dobbs seems to be making the wrong read. I noticed it several times the last few games and I noticed it against Bama. Of course I was in Z14 and haven't had the will power to watch the Bama game on tape, but it seems like he made a few bad reads again.

However, let me repeat, he runs or hands off the ball based on what he perceives - not what the coaches tell him.

Regarding the OL, that's a bunch of garbage. There are tons of HS's and middle schools across the country that run the spread and have no problem teaching zone blocking. We tought it to our 7th graders when I coached my son's team. We haven't had a healthy OL all season - I believe we've had at least 1 starter out some portion of every game. We can't expect 2nd and 3rd stringers to perform the same way a starter would, that's why they are 2nd string. Look how good our offense looked against AM before Wiseman got hurt.
 
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#25
#25
jps2194 said:
Let me address the QB running which you say we are afraid to do at times.

This is not how the offense works. Debord / Jones doesn't tell Dobbs "hey, don't run the ball against Bama, just hand it off". The offense is based off reading keys - typically the DE. If the DE crashes down, Dobbs should pull it and run. If the DE stays at home, he hands it off.

It is all about repetition and developing instincts and learning your keys. I've noticed lately Dobbs seems to be making the wrong read. I noticed it several times the last few games and I noticed it against Bama. Of course I was in Z14 and haven't had the will power to watch the Bama game on tape, but it seems like he made a few bad reads again.

However, let me repeat, he runs or hands off the ball based on what he perceives - not what the coaches tell him.

Regarding the OL, that's a bunch of garbage. There are tons of HS's and middle schools across the country that run the spread and have no problem teaching zone blocking. We tought it to our 7th graders when I coached my son's team. We haven't had a healthy OL all season - I believe we've had at least 1 starter out some portion of every game. We can't expect 2nd and 3rd stringers to perform the same way a starter would, that's why they are 2nd string. Look how good our offense looked against AM before Wiseman got hurt.
Click to expand...

I have noticed several misreads this season. Not sure what the issue is, but there have been more than one occasion where I was left thinking, "What the heck? Even I could see that read."
 
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