Butch Jones: The Man We Needed, The Coach We Didn't

[BeecherVol]

I've got a solid source that didn't relay this until after the fact. Butch's locker room behavior was "20 times" worse than his on the field behavior.

Perception was very important to him. The Shy Tuttle fight was a prime example.
A former UT great said it best. "It was a d@mn fight, no reason to call it anything else. It's football, we had fights everyday."

 

[sjrobert]

Coach Pruitt will bring us back to where we belong. Fulmer said it his self,

Fulmer said it himself.

FYP.

 

[jasonvol18]

Yeah, but see, we've heard that rumor several times on these boards (usually from the same handful of people). And so we keep waiting for the other shoe to drop...and waiting...and waiting.

Scurrilous rumors, if founded on truth, are always eventually validated. It can take time for the aggrieved to get out from under the influence of the other person, so they feel comfortable talking. But it always eventually comes out.

So now, today, we're 7 months into a world where not a single one of those players continue to play for Butch. He has no control over them for the past seven months, and...

...where are the revelations? Why aren't aggrieved players spilling their guts to ESPN or Sports Illustrated or BR, seeking vindication, exposing their truth?

Why hasn't there been a single new story of the supposed horrors of that locker room?

You think Mack Crowder has some reason for not telling if he got gut-punched? On the contrary!

So no, I don't believe any of that. At first, I neither believed nor doubted the rumors. Couldn't tell, either way. But now, as time continues to roll on without a single corroborating source--people who were actually there--I'm coming to the conclusion that it was just a bunch of gossip.

What about a VFL coordinator who bled Orange and White quit because of verbal abuse by Butch? You can't tell me if he was doing that to a beloved VFL who is a grown man, that he didn't do that to players also. Alvin Kamara didn't talk about about the coaching experience he had while at TN just because he wanted.

There's been way too much smoke with those rumors including Helm and his parents accusations. Things don't always come out immediately. Saban has had guys say stuff about him 8+ yrs later. Fulmer too. Foster didn't throw Fulmer under the bus for close to a decade later.

If guys are still on the team they aren't gonna talk about it with them trying to win jobs with a new staff. How often have you heard former Butch players showing him love and saying good things about him? JP has never been a HC and he's had tons of former players thank him and show love in the media.

 

[VFL-82-JP]

What about a VFL coordinator who bled Orange and White quit because of verbal abuse by Butch? You can't tell me if he was doing that to a beloved VFL who is a grown man, that he didn't do that to players also. Alvin Kamara didn't talk about about the coaching experience he had while at TN just because he wanted.

There's been way too much smoke with those rumors including Helm and his parents accusations. Things don't always come out immediately. Saban has had guys say stuff about him 8+ yrs later. Fulmer too. Foster didn't throw Fulmer under the bus for close to a decade later.

If guys are still on the team they aren't gonna talk about it with them trying to win jobs with a new staff. How often have you heard former Butch players showing him love and saying good things about him? JP has never been a HC and he's had tons of former players thank him and show love in the media.

Sure, and if some day the stories start to come out, then I'll start believing.

You do raise the absolutely valid case of Antone Davis. There was clearly something there.

So we know Butch isn't always a nice guy. But then again, I'm not either. I suspect neither are you, not all the time, to everyone.

To believe all the rumors about a locker room under siege, we'll need more than one unhappy camper. Even if he was a VERY unhappy camper.


p.s. Please do not fall into the logical trap of believing I'm defending Butch. Refusing to believe largely unfounded rumors is not the same thing as endorsing a person. There are more shades than 'black' and 'white'. Not saying you, specifically, would do this, Jason, but at times some folks do.

 

[VolsSportsFan]

Lol.. Exactly..Saban eats Oatmeal Cream Pies Every morning for breakfast, so I'm sure Butch has to have it opened and at desired temperature also.

I'm laughing thinking of Butch spending about 10 minutes every morning making sure the Oatmeal Cream Pie is perfectly on the plate, one morning Saban comes in, looks at it, then hurls the plate at the wall and goes off like Jack Nicholson in Anger Management.

 

[dcm3w]

If I could give this post 550 likes, I would.

I wonder if I could get 550 likes for this post, you'll stop posting?

 

[feathersax]

I'm laughing thinking of Butch spending about 10 minutes every morning making sure the Oatmeal Cream Pie is perfectly on the plate, one morning Saban comes in, looks at it, then hurls the plate at the wall and goes off like Jack Nicholson in Anger Management.

Love this movie scene. "I said...over EASY!!lol:

 

[TNnative]

Native, you're building that viewpoint off pure rumor and conjecture.

There are things we know. Then there are things that we don't actually know, but seem true based on the preponderance of available information. Then there are rumors and innuendo.

And you're dealing entirely in the latter.

Butch, like every other person on the planet, had both strengths and weaknesses. To see him as one-dimensional, all bad, is simplistic.

Well, I am a simple SOB and proud of it. But I don't get where the Hell you get the wild idea I am seeing him as "all bad". I am saying that if he believes treating any player with that type of disregard is allowable in this day and age, whatever good he has in him is irrelevant.

When I first heard those rumors, I didn't want to believe them. However, I am not just taking willy nilly rumors and running with them. The accusations fit the timelines and as you said, seem true based on a preponderance of available information.

I usually respect your opinion, but your conclusions this time is an exception. Even when some of us (me included) felt we were lucky to have Butch, we knew there were questions to be answered concerning attrition. And if this rumor has any truth to it, I sure wouldn't want anyone's son to endure it. For me, that is bigger than any win loss record. I'm not supporting coddling players, but if demanding they deserve common decency from coaches is outta line, I really don't care if they ever play another game. That is even a higher priority than Adams and/or Kesling being replaced. But not by much.

 

[OldandStillaVol]

Well, I am a simple SOB and proud of it. But I don't get where the Hell you get the wild idea I am seeing him as "all bad". I am saying that if he believes treating any player with that type of disregard is allowable in this day and age, whatever good he has in him is irrelevant.

When I first heard those rumors, I didn't want to believe them. However, I am not just taking willy nilly rumors and running with them. The accusations fit the timelines and as you said, seem true based on a preponderance of available information.

I usually respect your opinion, but your conclusions this time is an exception. Even when some of us (me included) felt we were lucky to have Butch, we knew there were questions to be answered concerning attrition. And if this rumor has any truth to it, I sure wouldn't want anyone's son to endure it. For me, that is bigger than any win loss record. I'm not supporting coddling players, but if demanding they deserve common decency from coaches is outta line, I really don't care if they ever play another game. That is even a higher priority than Adams and/or Kesling being replaced. But not by much.

Well said.

 

[VFL-82-JP]

Well, I am a simple SOB and proud of it. But I don't get where the Hell you get the wild idea I am seeing him as "all bad". I am saying that if he believes treating any player with that type of disregard is allowable in this day and age, whatever good he has in him is irrelevant.

When I first heard those rumors, I didn't want to believe them. However, I am not just taking willy nilly rumors and running with them. The accusations fit the timelines and as you said, seem true based on a preponderance of available information.

I usually respect your opinion, but your conclusions this time is an exception. Even when some of us (me included) felt we were lucky to have Butch, we knew there were questions to be answered concerning attrition. And if this rumor has any truth to it, I sure wouldn't want anyone's son to endure it. For me, that is bigger than any win loss record. I'm not supporting coddling players, but if demanding they deserve common decency from coaches is outta line, I really don't care if they ever play another game. That is even a higher priority than Adams and/or Kesling being replaced. But not by much.

I'm just not gonna buy third-hand rumors. Not with rumors like this which, if true...well, the truth ALWAYS comes out in cases like this. And sooner rather than later. Typically, as soon as the aggrieved person no longer works for or spends time with the antagonist.

So now, all the reportedly aggrieved players are no longer with Butch. They're in the NFL, or graduated and moved on to jobs, or are getting ready to play for a wholly different coaching staff.

And not a single one of them has come out with new info.

That is VERY unusual, if the locker room were as toxic as some claim.

...

So I'm not saying nothing happened. I'm just saying, I won't give the rumors credence until we start hearing first-hand accounts from folks who were actually there.

Innocent until proven guilty in this great nation, right?

 

[KBVol]

We needed neither the man nor the coach Jones was/is, or he’d still be here leading this team to championship runs. His failure here was a product of who he is and what type of coach he is. Did a few good things, did a few bad things, got himself fired after running the program into the ditch. That’s just the truth. He’s gone, Pruitt’s here, Go Vols.

 

[jasonvol18]

We needed neither the man nor the coach Jones was/is, or he’d still be here leading this team to championship runs. His failure here was a product of who he is and what type of coach he is. Did a few good things, did a few bad things, got himself fired after running the program into the ditch. That’s just the truth. He’s gone, Pruitt’s here, Go Vols.

Couldn't have said it better. We had an AD that had no business being here, running the AD Department.H e hired a guy who had red flags everywhere. Only fitting that Hart bought the sales pitch and paid a gently used Mercedes car price for a high milage Yugo with no engine. I see why Hart wasn't seen as Mal Moore's successor at Alabama.

 

[dcm3w]

We needed neither the man nor the coach Jones was/is, or he’d still be here leading this team to championship runs. His failure here was a product of who he is and what type of coach he is. Did a few good things, did a few bad things, got himself fired after running the program into the ditch. That’s just the truth. He’s gone, Pruitt’s here, Go Vols.

The title is misleading. I'm not saying that he was the man as some sort of role model or anything like that. He had many flaws. I thought he was a man we needed somewhere else in the organization. He had better talents for other positions than coaching.

 

[volnbama_]

Yeah, but see, we've heard that rumor several times on these boards (usually from the same handful of people). And so we keep waiting for the other shoe to drop...and waiting...and waiting.

Scurrilous rumors, if founded on truth, are always eventually validated. It can take time for the aggrieved to get out from under the influence of the other person, so they feel comfortable talking. But it always eventually comes out.

So now, today, we're 7 months into a world where not a single one of those players continue to play for Butch. He has no control over them for the past seven months, and...

...where are the revelations? Why aren't aggrieved players spilling their guts to ESPN or Sports Illustrated or BR, seeking vindication, exposing their truth?

Why hasn't there been a single new story of the supposed horrors of that locker room?

You think Mack Crowder has some reason for not telling if he got gut-punched? On the contrary!

So no, I don't believe any of that. At first, I neither believed nor doubted the rumors. Couldn't tell, either way. But now, as time continues to roll on without a single corroborating source--people who were actually there--I'm coming to the conclusion that it was just a bunch of gossip.

The best thing Butch did in his time here was punch Crowder. He should have snuck in an extra shot while he was at it

 

[VFL-82-JP]

The title is misleading. I'm not saying that he was the man as some sort of role model or anything like that. He had many flaws. I thought he was a man we needed somewhere else in the organization. He had better talents for other positions than coaching.

That's right.

Things he did for us:

(1) reestablished good relations with in-state and neighboring-state HS coaches.
(2) dramatically improved our APR, getting us well away from the penalties boundary.
(3) improved the VFL program significantly (not perfectly, as witnessed by a few VFLs with a really negative perspective--Antone Davis at the front--but still far beyond what Dooley left it at).
(4) improved recruiting (as others have pointed out, he did it with volume, and then lost a significant % of those he brought in, but it was still an improvement).
(5) kept the program clean of NCAA concern.
(6) kept the players engaged with community service.

Things he didn't do well for us:

(1) win to our teams' capabilities.
(2) develop the players to meet the potential they had coming in.
(3) make smart game-day decisions.
(4) play to win (instead, he played to avoid losing, which is less effective).
(5) avoid injuries (though how much of them is on him, we'll probably never know).
(6) avoid putting his foot in his mouth.

So it's really just like you said in the title. He brought things we needed. But didn't bring other things we needed. And the things he didn't bring, those tended to be the "coaching" things.

I thought your title was dead-on.

 

[VFL-82-JP]

The best thing Butch did in his time here was punch Crowder. He should have snuck in an extra shot while he was at it

Heh.

I still wonder about that. You'd think, if that had really happened, that Crowder or SOMEone that was in the locker room that day would've admitted it publicly by now. Crickets.

So I wonder if that was ever anything more than urban legend.

 

[VOL_Lyfe]

He cleans a mean windshield!

 

[dcm3w]

That's right.

Things he did for us:

(1) reestablished good relations with in-state and neighboring-state HS coaches.
(2) dramatically improved our APR, getting us well away from the penalties boundary.
(3) improved the VFL program significantly (not perfectly, as witnessed by a few VFLs with a really negative perspective--Antone Davis at the front--but still far beyond what Dooley left it at).
(4) improved recruiting (as others have pointed out, he did it with volume, and then lost a significant % of those he brought in, but it was still an improvement).
(5) kept the program clean of NCAA concern.
(6) kept the players engaged with community service.

Things he didn't do well for us:

(1) win to our teams' capabilities.
(2) develop the players to meet the potential they had coming in.
(3) make smart game-day decisions.
(4) play to win (instead, he played to avoid losing, which is less effective).
(5) avoid injuries (though how much of them is on him, we'll probably never know).
(6) avoid putting his foot in his mouth.

So it's really just like you said in the title. He brought things we needed. But didn't bring other things we needed. And the things he didn't bring, those tended to be the "coaching" things.

I thought your title was dead-on.

Thank you for the insightful write ups! I'm glad you understood what I was aiming for intentionally.

 

[Bobo0101]

The best thing Butch did in his time here was punch Crowder. He should have snuck in an extra shot while he was at it

This is the worst post I've ever read on this site. I hope it was somehow a joke. If not bama could use an extra fan, you should check them out. I now dislike you more than D4H and that's an achievement

 

[HoptownVol]

I was bored a week ago and watched the first half of the Tennessee - Florida game from 2001, my freshman year at UT. I miss being that caliber of a team. It was pretty obvious to me, early on, that neither Jones nor Dooley were going to get us there. Fingers crossed for Pruitt.

You do realize how lucky we were to win that game?

 

[volnbama_]

This is the worst post I've ever read on this site. I hope it was somehow a joke. If not bama could use an extra fan, you should check them out. I now dislike you more than D4H and that's an achievement

Clearly an attempt at humor but seriously **** Mack Crowder

 

[volfan2024]

He always came across as too hot-headed.

 

[KBVol]

You do realize how lucky we were to win that game?

What was lucky about lining up vs the #2 team in the country on the road and controlling both lines of scrimmage.....ran for 242 yards, about 8 yards per carry and 4tds. And then held them to 36 yards rushing. Not too much lucky there.

 

[VOL_Lyfe]

He just needed more time, its a process.

 

[volnashun]

Butch Jones issued his Players at Tennessee iPads loaded with Meraki Spyware operating system software (ie Univ of Tennessee Football) and monitored and controlled everything. This will come out public soon. A big problem if true. Certain players will need to look in on this.