Butch Jones... How much longer

[perico]

Dooley also beat Butch badly and let his young talented offense have fun during that game.

Which has nothing to do with the situation, considering that we were the highly favored team and that was before Hunter's injury and the implosion that followed.

We were nationally ranked after that game. Then Hunter went down for the year, Bray got hurt and Dooley's team imploded from within, starting a downward spiral that ended in his termination.

 

[sjt18]

because of the dooley disaster, butch should get 2-3 more years to turn it around and win big.

Very simply... no. Unless by "win big" you mean national championship contention.

There was nothing "broken" in the program that the right coach cannot fix in 3 or at the most 4 years. That is aided by the fact that the East has probably never been as weak as it is now since divisional play started.

Lowering the bar and giving more time to something that isn't working... is a waste of valuable time and resources.

PS- what would that say to kids like Hurd, North, Dobbs, Barnett, etc who were recruited on the notion that they were going to turn the program around? "Oh, thanks for your help but really the goal wasn't to be very good until the 6th year of Jones' tenure?" I don't think so. EVERY player that committed to help turn UT around is on the clock. They have around 50 games in their careers and you seem to suggest that a large portion of them are expendable... so that you can blame everything on Dooley. NO.

 

[perico]

I don't disagree with the OP on the minor observation that this staff is not a group of tactical geniuses. Very few are. But the description: "great recruiter but poor tactician" (or whatever it was) is a perfect description of Les Miles, and I'm pretty sure we'd be (relatively) happy with his results here. Anyway, the quick answer to the OPs question of how long Butch will be here: As long as he wants to be.

They said the same thing about Fulmer, even during the glory years of 93-01.

 

[Ericvol2096]

Very simply... no. Unless by "win big" you mean national championship contention.

There was nothing "broken" in the program that the right coach cannot fix in 3 or at the most 4 years. That is aided by the fact that the East has probably never been as weak as it is now since divisional play started.

Lowering the bar and giving more time to something that isn't working... is a waste of valuable time and resources.

PS- what would that say to kids like Hurd, North, Dobbs, Barnett, etc who were recruited on the notion that they were going to turn the program around? "Oh, thanks for your help but really the goal wasn't to be very good until the 6th year of Jones' tenure?" I don't think so. EVERY player that committed to help turn UT around is on the clock. They have around 50 games in their careers and you seem to suggest that a large portion of them are expendable... so that you can blame everything on Dooley. NO.

Well I think everyone agrees that by year 4 we should be winning 9+ regular season games and be in the SEC Title game or at the VERY WORST competing for it to the bitter end of the season.

That would be Hurd, Barnett's and Co's JR year so I don't think they would be upset with that.

You do realize we are coming off of 7 straight years with at least 6 losses right?

So I think a 9-3 or 10-2 record in two years would be considered winning big for this program right now.

 

[orangegrass]

I think we should fire the coach every year and make a new hire. It is the best possible outcome to build the program.

 

[bowlinggreenvol]

Boy are you going to be disappointed.

You do realize that he is playing with one (1) as in the singular - recruiting class and they are true freshmen. The General himself could not have built a successful team and offensive line with what Dooley left. He needs a few more of his guys and a few less of Dooley's guys to be successful.

He didn't recruit in Dec and Jan upon being hired? If not, Hart should require him to give back 2 months worth of salary.

 

[UTFootballFan]

He didn't recruit in Dec and Jan upon being hired? If not, Hart should require him to give back 2 months worth of salary.

Courting and convincing top recruits your school is the right one for them usually takes more than two months. This is especially true when you do not have a bowl game to talk about and your team had been getting their assess handed to them. Plus Jones had to get his staff in place and everyone had to find where the coffee pot and restrooms are.

It's a shame so many have unrealistic expectations based fuel by ignorance.

 

[bowlinggreenvol]

What the F?

You must have been asleep during the Dooley years..Butch Jones is like the Stonewall Jackson of time management compared to his predecessor.

So he's a good coach because he's better than Dooley? Good measuring stick. VN's prognosis of a good coach is predicated on how they fare vs the previous coach, not the rest of the conference or country. You know, who we're actually competing against.

 

[bowlinggreenvol]

Courting and convincing top recruits your school is the right one for them usually takes more than two months. Plus Jones had to get his staff in place and find where the coffee pot and restrooms were.

It's a shame so many have unrealistic expectations based fuel by ignorance.

You're right, Dooley didn't get Da'Rick, Hunter, Neal or Stone in 2 months.

Lane didn't get Brown, Janzen, Gordon, Nukeese, Teague in 2 months.

Not all panned out on the field but they were highly recruited guys who could've gone anywhere they wanted. It's foolish to not hold him responsible for the last 2 months of the recruiting cycle. If he had closed on numerous 4*+ many would've praised him but since it didn't happen it doesn't fit the agenda.

 

[tenninohio]

:cray:

You need a good o line to score TDs in the red zone

yep; preaching to the choir.

 

[UTFootballFan]

What percentage of highly recruited high school seniors wait until December and January of their senior years to make a decision and commit to a school?

Another thing to think about, EEs are already on campus when national signing day arrives on February 4. Many recruits make their minds up and commit in their junior years. Expecting a new coach to come in to a new job and land a bunch of high recruited athletes that will have a dramatic impact that coming fall and the next fall is unrealistic. If it happens, great. If not, it shouldn't be a surprise.

At least try to be realistic.

 

[bowlinggreenvol]

What percentage of highly recruited high school seniors wait until December and January of their senior years to make a decision and commit to a school?

Another thing to think about, EEs are already on campus when national signing day arrives on February 4. Many recruits make their minds up and commit in their junior years. Expecting a new coach to come in to a new job and land a bunch of high recruited athletes that will have a dramatic impact that coming fall and the next fall is unrealistic. If it happens, great. If not, it shouldn't be a surprise.

At least try to be realistic.

I just gave you a list of roughly 10 elite players that were as heavily recruited as any in the country. And to answer your question, most of the highly recruited guys wait until NSD or the all-star games. There's 30 5* as of now, 12 are uncommitted lees than a week from December. That's 40%. Do you not follow recruiting at all?

At least try to read the posts you respond to.

 

[james_govols]

I don't know what coach could muster a winning offense with this offensive line. CBJ is a great recruiter. He is bringing in talent, and soon we will determine if he is a good gameday coach or not.

Patience.

 

[landscapingvol]

I see bowlinggreenvol is at it again. Please good sir tell us all how to fix the program and list all the steps necessary so Dave Hart can apply the genius that is you to the clearly inadequate coaching that we currently are experiencing. I will hang up and listen.

 

[UTFootballFan]

I just gave you a list of roughly 10 elite players that were as heavily recruited as any in the country. And to answer your question, most of the highly recruited guys wait until NSD or the all-star games. There's 30 5* as of now, 12 are uncommitted lees than a week from December. That's 40%. Do you not follow recruiting at all?

At least try to read the posts you respond to.

So, you are telling me those 40% arent talking to and hearing from coaches and have been for the last year or two? Even if they don't make their decisions known to us, the process has been ongoing for longer than the two months before national signing day.

Even if a coach does snag some late commits, do you really expect them to make that much of an impact just seven to eight months later as true freshmen or the following season as redshirt freshmen or true sophomores?

I'll ask you a question now. Do you think with logic or just emotion?

 

[bowlinggreenvol]

So, you are telling me those 40% arent talking to and hearing from coaches and have been for the last year or two? Even if they don't make their decisions known to us, the process has been ongoing for longer than the two months before national signing day.

Even if a coach does snag some late commits, do you really expect them to make that much of an impact just seven to eight months later as true freshmen or the following season as redshirt freshmen or true sophomores?

I'll ask you a question now. Do you think with logic or just emotion?

And I'll ask you a question; do you always change your tune to fit your ever changing points? Your initial point was all the good guys were committed and always are by the time a coaching change is made. I showed you that's far from true so now you want to beat the relationship building drum to justify why he didn't get those guys you assumed were committed. I won't argue it typically takes time but there are exceptions.

If Dooley is credited with his late cycle coups then Butch has to be accountable as well. I'm not arguing he should've grabbed more talent than he did, I'm simply stating the sophomores on this roster are his and most are his alone.

And yes I expect elite recruits to make an impact early, especially with solid coaching. Da'Rick did so while being double teamed all yr as a SO, Janzen was the 2nd best player on the field ,behind Berry, as soon as he stepped on campus, AJ led the team in tackles for all 4 yrs. It's not far fetched to expect production out of young guys.

 

[UTFootballFan]

And I'll ask you a question; do you always change your tune to fit your ever changing points? Your initial point was all the good guys were committed and always are by the time a coaching change is made. I showed you that's far from true so now you want to beat the relationship building drum to justify why he didn't get those guys you assumed were committed. I won't argue it typically takes time but there are exceptions.

If Dooley is credited with his late cycle coups then Butch has to be accountable as well. I'm not arguing he should've grabbed more talent than he did, I'm simply stating the sophomores on this roster are his and most are his alone.

And yes I expect elite recruits to make an impact early, especially with solid coaching. Da'Rick did so while being double teamed all yr as a SO, Janzen was the 2nd best player on the field ,behind Berry, as soon as he stepped on campus, AJ led the team in tackles for all 4 yrs. It's not far fetched to expect production out of young guys.

Every forum has one and you appear to be the one for this forum. Show me where I said "all the good guys were committed and always are". You say I change my tune. Apparently you are the one that is trying to change my tuned for me.

 

[bowlinggreenvol]

What percentage of highly recruited high school seniors wait until December and January of their senior years to make a decision and commit to a school?

Another thing to think about, EEs are already on campus when national signing day arrives on February 4. Many recruits make their minds up and commit in their junior years. Expecting a new coach to come in to a new job and land a bunch of high recruited athletes that will have a dramatic impact that coming fall and the next fall is unrealistic. If it happens, great. If not, it shouldn't be a surprise.

At least try to be realistic.

Does your word "many" not equal my word "most"?

Your words: How many wait that long to make a decision?

Do those lines not imply that very few highly regarded guys are left in December?

Elite guys can afford to wait, marginal guys can't.

 

[UTFootballFan]

Does your word "many" not equal my word "most"?

Your words: How many wait that long to make a decision?

Do those lines not imply that very few highly regarded guys are left in December?

Elite guys can afford to wait, marginal guys can't.

I'll ask again, where did I say " all" as you said I did? None of those words mean "all". No, many does not mean most. Whether you admit it or not, the recruiting process starts long before the last two months before signing day. A new coach that's showing up to work in December is way behind the right ball in the process.

Remind me, are you the one that was touting you have a master's degree?

By the way, 60% does constitute " most" and also "many". Those are your percentages, not mine.

 

[daniel3417]

Unbelievable. Just utterly unbelievable. I can only be grateful during this time of thanks that the OP isn't the AD.

Asking when we'll move on to a different coach is refusing to look at our recent history and refusing to look at the near future. Frankly, I'm not sure what you're looking at. The talent on the field is young and inexperienced. Our eldest offensive lineman is a former walk-on who tore is freaking ACL this year.

But why am I telling you all this? You have to know this if you're a Vol fan.

If I can assure you that "moving on" from Butch would guarantee this program stalls for another five years, would you slow your roll? Because that's what it would do.

His recruiting is the best in the country given the program situation. Just look at the stars on the field. They're all his players!! There's nothing wrong with his tactics. I bet you were really criticizing the fake field goal against Mizzou. Sometimes a freshman makes a terrible play and tips the ball up when you're going into for the lead.

It just helps when you have a star defensive end who wasn't in high school last year. Tired of hearing the same old refrain? Then plug your ears because just being tired and frustrated of hearing doesn't change the fact: We are young. Historically young.

Someone save this quote from me: If we beat Georgia in 2016, we will be in the SEC title game. Could very well compete for it next year.

 

[bowlinggreenvol]

I'll ask again, where did I say " all" as you said I did? None of those words mean "all". No, many does not mean most. Whether you admit it or not, the recruiting process starts long before the last two months before signing day. A new coach that's showing up to work in December is way behind the right ball in the process.

Remind me, are you the one that was touting you have a master's degree?

By the way, 60% does constitute " most" and also "many". Those are your percentages, not mine.

Sorry I misspoke and said all initially.

Secondly, 60% is a true majority but it's not most. 40% is a lot of uncommitted guys.

Thirdly, and for the final time, I never once said Butch should've gotten more elite talent in his 2 months on the job then he did, as you keep painting on me. I said he has 2 recruiting classes under his belt. Roughly half of the 2013 class are his guys. If he had flipped/pulled elite talent in those 2 months the sunshine pumpers would've credited Butch and Co alone. When he didn't, he gets a pass and that class isn't realy his. It can't go both ways; the class is his or it isn't. I think he did a decent job and provided us solid depth with above avg players.

He's proven to be a damn fine recruiter and I don't question him in that department. However, if his Jr's fail to develop next year I'll begin to question the staff's player development ability and not say "oh he only had 2 months."

Fourthly, you keep skimming over, or failing to comprehend, my numerous acknowledgements that recruiting is more times than not a time/relationship thing. I've not denied that either. Since we're throwing around insinuating insults: do you have a master's? If not, maybe you should've gotten one so you're contextual reading skills could've been enhanced.

 

[UTFootballFan]

Sorry I misspoke and said all initially.

Secondly, 60% is a true majority but it's not most. 40% is a lot of uncommitted guys.

Thirdly, and for the final time, I never once said Butch should've gotten more elite talent in his 2 months on the job then he did, as you keep painting on me. I said he has 2 recruiting classes under his belt. Roughly half of the 2013 class are his guys. If he had flipped/pulled elite talent in those 2 months the sunshine pumpers would've credited Butch and Co alone. When he didn't, he gets a pass and that class isn't realy his. It can't go both ways; the class is his or it isn't. I think he did a decent job and provided us solid depth with above avg players.

He's proven to be a damn fine recruiter and I don't question him in that department. However, if his Jr's fail to develop next year I'll begin to question the staff's player development ability and not say "oh he only had 2 months."

Fourthly, you keep skimming over, or failing to comprehend, my numerous acknowledgements that recruiting is more times than not a time/relationship thing. I've not denied that either. Since we're throwing around insinuating insults: do you have a master's? If not, maybe you should've gotten one so you're contextual reading skills could've been enhanced.

You misquote me, change your story, try to claim I meant something I didn't, then claim it was a mistake and then continue to insult my reading and comprehension skills. My reading and reasoning skills are in fine order, even without a master's degree.

Yes, 60% is most. I'll help you out.
most
[mohst]

ADJECTIVE
1. in the greatest quantity, amount, measure, degree, or number: to win the most votes.
2. in the majority of instances: Most operations are successful.

man·y
[men-ee]

ADJECTIVE [MORE, MOST.]
1. constituting or forming a large number; numerous: many people.


I normally try to follow the advice of the great philosopher, George Carlin. He says, 'Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.' I'm ashamed of myself as I let my guard down.

 

[landscapingvol]

I see bowlinggreenvol is at it again. Please good sir tell us all how to fix the program and list all the steps necessary so Dave Hart can apply the genius that is you to the clearly inadequate coaching that we currently are experiencing. I will hang up and listen.

bowlinggreenvol see above post

 

[oldbasshead2]

This should have been obvious from last night. Pinkel has been there for years. His plan is well-established. His players may not be highly touted, but they are experienced and know the system.

Stability is what we need right now.

I strongly agree that stability is critical at UT. CBJ has his system and with time he is smart and motivated enough to tweak his system. With stability, he can continue to recruit great talent and good things are bound to happen.

 

[oldbasshead2]

Was it just me but did Mizz just simply look more talented than we did? Or perhaps just older and stronger? It was evident to me that this game was going to be tough to win after the first 10 minutes. They not only dominated the lines, but the blocking and defense on the edges especially. Their d-backs and receivers man handled our younger guys BIG TIME.

And to think we still had our shots late in the game should give us continued hope. Not the crap making up this post.

Some things you just can't scheme through. I swear some of you thnk with the right strategy, granny in a wheelchair could take out Tyson in the ring during his prime...

I think MO was just older and more physical. However, UT's talent and determination keep us in the game.