Butch, IMO

#1
volsportsfan

volsportsfan

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#1
First of all I want to say up front, Butch got fired because he wasn't good enough. I want to dive a little deeper into this though with a quick thought.

Butch would still be here, we would have won at least 6, and would be coaching here next year, if he hadn't went to more of a pocket qb scheme. Dormady, the receivers, and this line were not ready ( Butch's fault ). Butch should have stuck to what he knows and does best. Run the ball, with read option and a true running threat ( S.Jones or JG should have been the starter and practicing Butch's read option, conservative, run lean offense from the very start of spring ball ).

Part of me wishes he was still here because the chances of getting a championship caliber coach seem to be slim these days. How did Clemson luck into Dabo?? Geez, maybe we can hire someone like that who is not proven and he turns out to be great. Chances are slim though. Hopefully we get gruden or Mullen.

Anyway, I just wish Jones had stuck with what he knows and does best. He spent all spring ball, all fall ball, and half the season trying to run an offense he simply doesn't know how to teach well enough. He was at a fork in the road offensively and chose wrong. He chose wrong because he wasn't quite good enough. Just, my opinion.
 
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#2
#2
volsportsfan said:
First of all I want to say up front, Butch got fired because he wasn't good enough. I want to dive a little deeper into this though with a quick thought.

Butch would still be here, we would have won at least 6, and would be coaching here next year, if he hadn't went to more of a pocket qb scheme. Dormady, the receivers, and this line were not ready ( Butch's fault ). Butch should have stuck to what he knows and does best. Run the ball, with read option and a true running threat ( S.Jones or JG should have been the starter and practicing Butch's read option, conservative, run lean offense from the very start of spring ball ).

Part of me wishes he was still here because the chances of getting a championship caliber coach seem to be slim these days. How did Clemson luck into Dabo?? Geez, maybe we can hire someone like that who is not proven and he turns out to be great. Chances are slim though. Hopefully we get gruden or Mullen.

Anyway, I just wish Jones had stuck with what he knows and does best. He spent all spring ball, all fall ball, and half the season trying to run an offense he simply doesn't know how to teach well enough. Just, my opinion.
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Butch aint here because he was stubborn, hired his incompetent buddies as asistants, and couldnt develop players. His in game coaching was atrocious (blew games against uf, uk, and uscE)
 
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#3
#3
volsportsfan said:
First of all I want to say up front, Butch got fired because he wasn't good enough. I want to dive a little deeper into this though with a quick thought.

Butch would still be here, we would have won at least 6, and would be coaching here next year, if he hadn't went to more of a pocket qb scheme. Dormady, the receivers, and this line were not ready ( Butch's fault ). Butch should have stuck to what he knows and does best. Run the ball, with read option and a true running threat ( S.Jones or JG should have been the starter and practicing Butch's read option, conservative, run lean offense from the very start of spring ball ).

Part of me wishes he was still here because the chances of getting a championship caliber coach seem to be slim these days. How did Clemson luck into Dabo?? Geez, maybe we can hire someone like that who is not proven and he turns out to be great. Chances are slim though. Hopefully we get gruden or Mullen.

Anyway, I just wish Jones had stuck with what he knows and does best. He spent all spring ball, all fall ball, and half the season trying to run an offense he simply doesn't know how to teach well enough. Just, my opinion.
Click to expand...

Butch didn’t change his offense, he changed the qb style to run his offense. He had to cause he couldn’t develop talent so instead of going with JG he went with the guy who was around longer, QD. CBJ should not still be here.
 
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#4
#4
This season, which was a flow over from last year bad USC/Vandy losses, combined with loss of talent, was too much a mitigated disaster across the board, at every unit, except for maybe RB, to give Butch credit for anything other than recruiting and classroom. He was gone after SC game, if not UGA...regardless of winning 6 or not...IMO.
 
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#5
#5
volsportsfan said:
First of all I want to say up front, Butch got fired because he wasn't good enough. I want to dive a little deeper into this though with a quick thought.

Butch would still be here, we would have won at least 6, and would be coaching here next year, if he hadn't went to more of a pocket qb scheme. Dormady, the receivers, and this line were not ready ( Butch's fault ). Butch should have stuck to what he knows and does best. Run the ball, with read option and a true running threat ( S.Jones or JG should have been the starter and practicing Butch's read option, conservative, run lean offense from the very start of spring ball ).

Part of me wishes he was still here because the chances of getting a championship caliber coach seem to be slim these days. How did Clemson luck into Dabo?? Geez, maybe we can hire someone like that who is not proven and he turns out to be great. Chances are slim though. Hopefully we get gruden or Mullen.

Anyway, I just wish Jones had stuck with what he knows and does best. He spent all spring ball, all fall ball, and half the season trying to run an offense he simply doesn't know how to teach well enough. He was at a fork in the road offensively and chose wrong. He chose wrong because he wasn't quite good enough. Just, my opinion.
Click to expand...

Part of me wants to kick you in the nuttz.

No offense, I'm sure you're good people.:)
 
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#6
#6
Should have kept the swim coach imo.

Also they made the same mistake Fulmer did with the Clawfense. You have to adjust to what your players do best and not force them to do things they do not excel at. This team should be able to out talent their way to six wins.
 
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#8
#8
volsportsfan said:
First of all I want to say up front, Butch got fired because he wasn't good enough. I want to dive a little deeper into this though with a quick thought.

Butch would still be here, we would have won at least 6, and would be coaching here next year, if he hadn't went to more of a pocket qb scheme. Dormady, the receivers, and this line were not ready ( Butch's fault ). Butch should have stuck to what he knows and does best. Run the ball, with read option and a true running threat ( S.Jones or JG should have been the starter and practicing Butch's read option, conservative, run lean offense from the very start of spring ball ).

Part of me wishes he was still here because the chances of getting a championship caliber coach seem to be slim these days. How did Clemson luck into Dabo?? Geez, maybe we can hire someone like that who is not proven and he turns out to be great. Chances are slim though. Hopefully we get gruden or Mullen.

Anyway, I just wish Jones had stuck with what he knows and does best. He spent all spring ball, all fall ball, and half the season trying to run an offense he simply doesn't know how to teach well enough. He was at a fork in the road offensively and chose wrong. He chose wrong because he wasn't quite good enough. Just, my opinion.
Click to expand...

Newsflash...JG can't run the ball. We should have had Juaun Jennings in at QB if we wanted to try to recreate what we had with Josh Dobbs.
 
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#9
#9
Not to mention he screwed himself with the way he handled the S&C in ‘15. That is a huge reason we got pushed around on both OL and DL. Our big uglies never got any stronger than they were when they stepped on campus
 
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#10
#10
Blackburn said:
Newsflash...JG can't run the ball. We should have had Juaun Jennings in at QB if we wanted to try to recreate what we had with Josh Dobbs.
Click to expand...

He did have a bum ankle after taking what seemed like 20 sacks a game for a couple of weeks.
 
#11
#11
3rdAndChavis said:
Butch didn’t change his offense, he changed the qb style to run his offense. He had to cause he couldn’t develop talent so instead of going with JG he went with the guy who was around longer, QD. CBJ should not still be here.
Click to expand...

We are saying the same thing except the develop talent part. Developing talent in the pass game, yes, I agree. Butch could definitely develop talent to run the ball. Yes, he decided to use a pocket qb, go away from read option ( nobody was gonna respect Dormady as a runner anyway ), and our offense was terrible this year. Which in turn hurt the defense. The read option makes your run game more effective. That's why most everybody uses it with a dual threat qb. Butch decided to go away from his strength, which is running the ball, and using read option to make it even more deadly. Why? I don't know. When I do anything in life ( chased my wife, jobs, etc ), I use what I'm good at to achieve that goal. Of course, I have made the same mistake butch made and have tried to be something I'm not, or do something I'm not good at, and just like butch I fell on my face.
 
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#13
#13
Blackburn said:
Newsflash...JG can't run the ball. We should have had Juaun Jennings in at QB if we wanted to try to recreate what we had with Josh Dobbs.
Click to expand...

Hey, I'm all for that!! Never thought of it, but you may be right. I forgot about Jennings playing qb. Either way, yes! Recreate what you had with Dobbs. Do not go away from what you do best! Here and at Cincinnati. Butch's offenses flowed better with a true dual threat running read option and pounding the run game
 
#15
#15
Butch didn’t want to be here any more. His fragile ego could not cope with hearing critical fans

From day 1 his offense was garbage. Hurry up and punt. Result was a depleted roster due to injuries.

He was too stubborn to change his precious offense. He didn’t have time to practice or try something new. Complain all you want about Dormady but we won more games before his shoulder injury. Dobbs is the only QB in Butch’s system at UT who never got hurt. That’s a telling stat
 
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#17
#17
Yeah ummmm NO! Seriously, if u watched any game this season u would see we relied on the run game too much! Not hard to stack the box and stop the run when u know all 5 plays Lyle runs! Should have went with a pro stlye offense with the talent we had! Lyles system has sucked since he got here, Dobbs was just able to mask the BS! Also to note, in my honest opinion JK while a good back, I feel isn't the best back on the roster. Looks for contact too much and isn't a play maker like ty chandler. Two back system would have done wonders
 
#18
#18
nash101 said:
Butch didn’t want to be here any more. His fragile ego could not cope with hearing critical fans

From day 1 his offense was garbage. Hurry up and punt. Result was a depleted roster due to injuries.

He was too stubborn to change his precious offense. He didn’t have time to practice or try something new. Complain all you want about Dormady but we won more games before his shoulder injury. Dobbs is the only QB in Butch’s system at UT who never got hurt. That’s a telling stat
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I disagree. I think he tried to change his offense by getting rid of read option ( which hurt the run game, and pass game if you really think about it), and by going with a pocket qb, which has to go through more than 1 or 2 progressions to be successful ( line has to protect longer ). He did try to change and it got him fired imo
 
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#19
#19
EODVOL said:
Yeah ummmm NO! Seriously, if u watched any game this season u would see we relied on the run game too much! Not hard to stack the box and stop the run when u know all 5 plays Lyle runs! Should have went with a pro stlye offense with the talent we had! Lyles system has sucked since he got here, Dobbs was just able to mask the BS! Also to note, in my honest opinion JK while a good back, I feel isn't the best back on the roster. Looks for contact too much and isn't a play maker like ty chandler. Two back system would have done wonders
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Teams have been stacking the box for years to stop our run game. Our offense steadily improved. Look at the stats. What changed this year? Dobbs gone, read option gone, now you have hurt your run game because you replaced Dobbs with a pocket qb and had to quit running true read option ( this dummy read stuff nobody ever fell for or respected ). The run game hurt by changing to pocket qb, and the line being more relied upon to protect a pocket qb, and receivers being more relied upon to get open and catch the ball, and your end result is a terrible offensive year and butch fired.
 
#20
#20
volsportsfan said:
I disagree. I think he tried to change his offense by getting rid of read option ( which hurt the run game, and pass game if you really think about it), and by going with a pocket qb, which has to go through more than 1 or 2 progressions to be successful ( line has to protect longer ). He did try to change and it got him fired imo
Click to expand...

Having Scott, Canallas, Wells, Hoke and Shoop got him fired.
 
#21
#21
volsportsfan said:
We are saying the same thing except the develop talent part. Developing talent in the pass game, yes, I agree. Butch could definitely develop talent to run the ball. Yes, he decided to use a pocket qb, go away from read option ( nobody was gonna respect Dormady as a runner anyway ), and our offense was terrible this year. Which in turn hurt the defense. The read option makes your run game more effective. That's why most everybody uses it with a dual threat qb. Butch decided to go away from his strength, which is running the ball, and using read option to make it even more deadly. Why? I don't know. When I do anything in life ( chased my wife, jobs, etc ), I use what I'm good at to achieve that goal. Of course, I have made the same mistake butch made and have tried to be something I'm not, or do something I'm not good at, and just like butch I fell on my face.
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Frankly I don't want to hear this sh$$. Take it around the block.
 
#22
#22
I also want to say, I'm not at all saying Dormady isn't good. Actually, I think Dormady should have transferred once Jones, JG, and Jennings became the qb's for this system. He should be elsewhere under a coach that properly teaches the pocket qb offense, balling out, like I think he can.
 
#23
#23
volsportsfan said:
First of all I want to say up front, Butch got fired because he wasn't good enough. I want to dive a little deeper into this though with a quick thought.

Butch would still be here, we would have won at least 6, and would be coaching here next year, if he hadn't went to more of a pocket qb scheme. Dormady, the receivers, and this line were not ready ( Butch's fault ). Butch should have stuck to what he knows and does best. Run the ball, with read option and a true running threat ( S.Jones or JG should have been the starter and practicing Butch's read option, conservative, run lean offense from the very start of spring ball ).
Click to expand...
Pretty much none of this is true. What has JG done that convinces you he's a running QB? He's not. He is a slightly more mobile pocket QB. He's nothing like Dobbs or Fitzgerald or a Clemson QB.

Jones said repeatedly that his system was the west coast spread and not a spread option offense. His O didn't fail because either of those offenses are bad in and of themselves. Jones had his own "version". It didn't work at the top level of competition. He had absolutely no clue as how to modify it so it would work... and was too stubborn to let someone else fix it. One of the guys who got screwed the worst is Scott. He took the blame... but from his comments since spring it was very apparent he wanted to change the O to run more pro-set because that suited his best players.

Jones not only killed that... he tightened the noose around Scott as the season went on.

One thing that is true is that if Jones were only going to make a sham of the "QB competition" then he should have named JG the starter in the spring and worked on getting him ready. He expected JG to win.... then he didn't and didn't even make it close enough for Jones to pretend he won. So rather than even at a late date declare QD the winner and start building the O around him... he kept his O and kept the competition going until he got the result he wanted.

In truth, that stubbornness was probably the last straw. The team never jelled. The O never made sense or worked. Guys "thought" too much as the played which probably contributed to the injuries.... and no one in the end trusted Jones except for maybe JG.

Part of me wishes he was still here because the chances of getting a championship caliber coach seem to be slim these days. How did Clemson luck into Dabo?? Geez, maybe we can hire someone like that who is not proven and he turns out to be great. Chances are slim though. Hopefully we get gruden or Mullen.
Click to expand...
Did you make the mistake of choosing a handful of guys and declaring that everyone else wouldn't be good enough? If so... that's completely on you. What Mullen has done at Miss St is more impressive than what Saban did at Mich St. If it is someone else then they'll have their own merits and flaws.

We KNOW that Jones was not a championship caliber coach. Why keep him unless you are satisfied with that? It is MUCH better to hire someone on the hope that they are than to keep someone you know isn't.

Anyway, I just wish Jones had stuck with what he knows and does best. He spent all spring ball, all fall ball, and half the season trying to run an offense he simply doesn't know how to teach well enough. He was at a fork in the road offensively and chose wrong. He chose wrong because he wasn't quite good enough. Just, my opinion.
Click to expand...
He doesn't know anything well enough to teach it. He latched on to Kelly's coat tails and then got exposed when he actually had to build something from the bottom up.

Besides his O, it is very apparent that he didn't know how to develop players, gameplan, didn't recruit well to NEEDS, didn't handle players well, didn't manage team health well, and didn't know how to hire or manage a staff. He's pretty much a failure at every aspect of actually coaching a team.

You started right. He's not good enough. The rest of these excuses are just false. Why even try them?

Want to know the one phrase that probably sums up his failure more than anything? "the fine details of playing winning football". Jones' teams NEVER mastered the fundamentals... and he worried himself and everyone else over "fine details". That's how you create a DT that worries so much about having perfect hand placement that they get their shoulders turned by the OL on virtually every play. That's how you get OL's so worried about taking the perfect number of steps that they don't aggressively attack someone.

I watched replays of a few games early in the focusing on Jack Jones. On the vast majority of plays, he didn't hit a soul. It was like he was running around trying to figure out where he was supposed to be rather than finding someone to block.

Jones' issues run much, much deeper than what you think... and some of us have been saying so for awhile.
 
#24
#24
sjt18 said:
Pretty much none of this is true. What has JG done that convinces you he's a running QB? He's not. He is a slightly more mobile pocket QB. He's nothing like Dobbs or Fitzgerald or a Clemson QB.

Jones said repeatedly that his system was the west coast spread and not a spread option offense. His O didn't fail because either of those offenses are bad in and of themselves. Jones had his own "version". It didn't work at the top level of competition. He had absolutely no clue as how to modify it so it would work... and was too stubborn to let someone else fix it. One of the guys who got screwed the worst is Scott. He took the blame... but from his comments since spring it was very apparent he wanted to change the O to run more pro-set because that suited his best players.

Jones not only killed that... he tightened the noose around Scott as the season went on.

One thing that is true is that if Jones were only going to make a sham of the "QB competition" then he should have named JG the starter in the spring and worked on getting him ready. He expected JG to win.... then he didn't and didn't even make it close enough for Jones to pretend he won. So rather than even at a late date declare QD the winner and start building the O around him... he kept his O and kept the competition going until he got the result he wanted.

In truth, that stubbornness was probably the last straw. The team never jelled. The O never made sense or worked. Guys "thought" too much as the played which probably contributed to the injuries.... and no one in the end trusted Jones except for maybe JG.

Did you make the mistake of choosing a handful of guys and declaring that everyone else wouldn't be good enough? If so... that's completely on you. What Mullen has done at Miss St is more impressive than what Saban did at Mich St. If it is someone else then they'll have their own merits and flaws.

We KNOW that Jones was not a championship caliber coach. Why keep him unless you are satisfied with that? It is MUCH better to hire someone on the hope that they are than to keep someone you know isn't.


He doesn't know anything well enough to teach it. He latched on to Kelly's coat tails and then got exposed when he actually had to build something from the bottom up.

Besides his O, it is very apparent that he didn't know how to develop players, gameplan, didn't recruit well to NEEDS, didn't handle players well, didn't manage team health well, and didn't know how to hire or manage a staff. He's pretty much a failure at every aspect of actually coaching a team.

You started right. He's not good enough. The rest of these excuses are just false. Why even try them?

Want to know the one phrase that probably sums up his failure more than anything? "the fine details of playing winning football". Jones' teams NEVER mastered the fundamentals... and he worried himself and everyone else over "fine details". That's how you create a DT that worries so much about having perfect hand placement that they get their shoulders turned by the OL on virtually every play. That's how you get OL's so worried about taking the perfect number of steps that they don't aggressively attack someone.

I watched replays of a few games early in the focusing on Jack Jones. On the vast majority of plays, he didn't hit a soul. It was like he was running around trying to figure out where he was supposed to be rather than finding someone to block.

Jones' issues run much, much deeper than what you think... and some of us have been saying so for awhile.
Click to expand...

You and I see a completely different football game, that's my reply to you.

Now the last part about issues running deeper, well maybe there is something to this. The reports about lying and broken promises, I don't know if true or not. But, either way, you gotta be a man of your word. Hopefully that stuff isn't true
 
#25
#25
PS- the longer Jones was the coach and the further he got from players coached by Wilcox and Chaney... the less fundamentally sound they were.
 
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