Butch deserves NO Raise and NO extension

#352
#352
SaintLouisVol said:
I agree. It would be much better than taking that same job knowing that because the last guy was "the worst to ever hold that type of job worldwide," it's going to take a LOT of excellent work on your part. And, because you are not perfect and you're not the "the BEST to ever hold that type of job worldwide" (because there's not a whole lot of those out there) you're going to make some mistakes.

And wouldn't you know it, but despite making pretty dang good progress in your first few years, you're labeled a mediocre or even bad by a group of only partially educated people who have expectations that MAY not be reasonable

I agree. I would prefer your job.
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With the type of job I do I have to be in difficult situations quite often and take my fair share of cussing from frustrated people. I've always been of the opinion at least on the message boards that I don't feel the need to personally go after other posters just because they don't agree with me. Not that it bothers me if people want to take pot shots because I'm very well adjusted to it in my line of work.

And I'm not just talking about the quoted post because it's really not that bad. But there are a lot, and I mean a ton of people on this board who get downright nasty to people who are not fans of the coach.

Message boards are for opinions. My opinion is that I've saw enough of this guy. There are hundreds of arguments to be made as to why or why not he's the right guy for the job. And it's ok not to be on the same side of the stick. Largely I feel that most of the people who do not support the head coach do not go out and attack other posters on the forum though. But a very vocal majority of the #FightingButchs are not against verbally chastising people that don't agree with their opinion. That's the part of it that I don't understand at all. I'm fine if you like the guy and you want to back him - to each their own. But just because my "opinion" is different than yours shouldn't mean that you should be so offended by it that you feel the need to bash me for no real reason.

I feel that what I've saw from Butch Jones gives me enough reason to believe that he's never going to be the right guy in Knoxville. And apparently a lot of you feel like he's definitely the right guy. At the end of the day I don't give a flying crap who the GUY is I just want the program to be successful again. I don't think it should be unrealistic at Tennessee to expect an SEC East title every 3 years or so and to have a chance to compete for a National Title and win the SEC Championship once every 7-10 years.

I know that Butch Jones took over after a horrid coach. I know the guy works hard. He has appeared at many places in and around the community and seems like a nice guy. He's been a good recruiter so far. I have a good friend in Cincinnati who just was ecstatic when Butch took the Tennessee job. He said a lot of people in Cinci were tired of that guy because he couldn't coach. I've read articles from journalists in Cinci when we took Butch on as the Head Coach that said something very similarly. And after nearly 3 full years and not that he lost this year to Oklahoma, Florida, and Arkansas but how they lost to those teams have made me check out on the guy completely. I was nearly checked out after year one and the Vandy beatdown. I was really checked out last year after the Florida loss but felt that he could possibly get it together this year with the talent that he's got.

As a game day coach I just don't think the guy is that great. He MAY be one of the best prepared coaches headed into a game because of the ability the Vols have shown to jump out on teams. But as the other teams adjust it doesn't seem like we can. We can script out the first quarter to half pretty well and then it all goes to heck for some reason. South Carolina may very well have beaten us had that dude not fumbled. And we very well could have beaten Florida had we stopped them on a 4th and 14 so it goes both ways.

All I'm trying to say is that I don't understand why it's not ok to agree to disagree. I'm a pretty reasonable guy I will take statistics and facts that others bring in and try to digest them. I'm not always right. And I think I've said time and again that next year the talent that he has on the field may be able to overcome his, IMO, coaching ineptitude on game days.

And I will reiterate that I do feel pretty strongly that these next two games really could be defining games for Butch Jones at Tennessee. Missouri and Vanderbilt are teams he has to beat in 2015. Both have solid to great defenses. But if we are going to be contenders we can't lose games like those.
 
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#353
#353
BigOrangeTrain said:
The fact that you quoted that post is sad. But I am not surprised.
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Just goofing around.....if that actually made you sad, lol, that's 100% on you. Dear God knows you've quoted plenty of dumb posts and then proceeded to go on an yet another insulting, self-righteous, sarcastic-ridden rant. Unlike the typical crap you spew, mine was meant to be lighthearted and harmless.
 
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#356
#356
Excellent summation, D and D.. And I think I may be able to explain the "verbally chastising those who disagree" part.

A lot of the blind support for Jones is built on hope, and platitudes -- loves UT, wants to be here, the process, Dooley was a dumpster fire, etc. Said support does not stand up to disagreement supported by facts. Neither is there any factual support for the multitude of lame brained in game decisions that Jones has made.

Thus, the posiJones mobile is a fragile one, and when you tip it the only comeback is a personal attack.
 
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#357
#357
jasonvols2.2 said:
He doesn't need to be fired of course. There are a bunch of openings, and I doubt Butch would leave. But he has done nothing this season to be rewarded.
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Stirring the pot are we...
th
 
#359
#359
pharmDvol11 said:
OP (and those that agree) know nothing about business or results
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Well... yeah, some of us do.

I know that if I had a salesman who failed and was fired and replaced him with a guy who seemed to be doing a lot of the right things but had not improved results yet.... they wouldn't get a raise or contract extension if applicable. You reward RESULTS. Not words. Not promises. Not pleas for patience. Not even what appears to be excellent administrative and foundational work. "Close" isn't results. "Next year" isn't results. Barely missed opportunities for wins... isn't results.
 
#362
#362
sjt18 said:
Well... yeah, some of us do.

I know that if I had a salesman who failed and was fired and replaced him with a guy who seemed to be doing a lot of the right things but had not improved results yet.... they wouldn't get a raise or contract extension if applicable. You reward RESULTS. Not words. Not promises. Not pleas for patience. Not even what appears to be excellent administrative and foundational work. "Close" isn't results. "Next year" isn't results. Barely missed opportunities for wins... isn't results.
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What if the salesman improved sales by 16 percent every year? 5-7-9. If we win out, butch will have done that. That is just the wins part of it. Not bad growth.
 
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#365
#365
JacketVol said:
What if the salesman improved sales by 16 percent every year? 5-7-9. If we win out, butch will have done that. That is just the wins part of it. Not bad growth.
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I was following the vein of the thread that seemed to suggest Jones would not win out.

If he wins 8 regular season games then I am in favor of rewarding him to some degree.

FWIW, anything less than 8 is still range bound and.... failure. Making progress toward success is great... but still doesn't deserve reward if the result is still sub-par. For my part, I wholly reject Dooley as the "standard" that Jones must beat. He needs to at least get back to the bridesmaid mediocrity that Fulmer gave us between 2000 and 2005 before we start talking about rewarding him for improving the degrees of success.
 
#366
#366
If he wins 8 regular season games and loses the bowl he deserves a raise and his assistants do too. We're improving. The team loves him. The fanbase is hungry and he's selling more and more season tickets. This guy is doing many things right and he's doing them the right way.

If you don't reward success/improvement then what kind of message are you sending?
 
#367
#367
Another thing...If you were to throw another $1 million at the staff (divided amongst them) then it costs you $1 million each year. If your coaches are unhappy, don't put as much effort in or even leave....it will cost you much more than $1 million.
 
#370
#370
VolnJC said:
Think a lot of it is lack of depth in the 4th quarter..I know it was vs Oklahoma and Arky..we also came a lot closer to beating those teams than several who were more talented..three of them are 27-3!
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Which is exactly why Butch should've milked the clock late in the second half. Simply snapping the ball with 1-2 seconds left as opposed to 20-22 seconds on the play clock, would've ate up 6 min vs OK. Game over. Florida was the single biggest coaching fail I've seen in 40 years. We got lucky with Chubb going out. USC came down to a great defensive play on their last drive. Etc, etc. I really hope butch & co. learns and grows a pair. Not holding my breath. He's too proud and stubborn.
 
#371
#371
Let's take a logical approach. Where would a coach with Butch's resume and compensation package go? Other SEC schools are on the verge of firing coaches with much better pedigrees and records. P5 programs aren't going to pursue a coach with a .500 record at UT, coming off what many perceive to be a disappointing season. Schools like Miami and VT can't match his compensation. And why would he make a downward move to go to a less prestigious program with fewer resources, inferior facilities and lower pay?

When CBJ takes UT to the SECCG, that's when solid programs will take notice. And that's when he'll have the leverage to negotiate a better package... or make a move if he wants to coach in another conference. Right now, both sides are status quo. No reason to make a move and no reason to sweeten a good contract for someone who has no leverage for more.
 
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#372
#372
Volunteer08 said:
If he wins 8 regular season games and loses the bowl he deserves a raise and his assistants do too. We're improving. The team loves him. The fanbase is hungry and he's selling more and more season tickets. This guy is doing many things right and he's doing them the right way.

If you don't reward success/improvement then what kind of message are you sending?
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Two raises and extensions for beating one good team in three years. If I have a son, I'm definitely encouraging him to go into coaching.
 
#373
#373
LA Vol said:
Let's take a logical approach. Where would a coach with Butch's resume and compensation package go? Other SEC schools are on the verge of firing coaches with much better pedigrees and records. P5 programs aren't going to pursue a coach with a .500 record at UT, coming off what many perceive to be a disappointing season. Schools like Miami and VT can't match his compensation. And why would he make a downward move to go to a less prestigious program with fewer resources, inferior facilities and lower pay?

When CBJ takes UT to the SECCG, that's when solid programs will take notice. And that's when he'll have the leverage to negotiate a better package... or make a move if he wants to coach in another conference. Right now, both sides are status quo. No reason to make a move and no reason to sweeten a good contract for someone who has no leverage for more.
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Very logical, well written assessment. Not sure why you wasted your time putting it into this train wreck of a thread.....then again, why am I still reading this thread???
 
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#375
#375
Volunteer08 said:
If he wins 8 regular season games and loses the bowl he deserves a raise and his assistants do too. We're improving. The team loves him. The fanbase is hungry and he's selling more and more season tickets. This guy is doing many things right and he's doing them the right way.

If you don't reward success/improvement then what kind of message are you sending?
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The UT AD cornered itself with both Fulmer and Dooley by giving extensions and raises for minimal "improvement". Fulmer actually went to the CG before receiving a revised contract that ended up putting UT in the hole with his buyout.

All I am saying is don't overstate what Jones "deserves" a raise for...

If I am not mistaken, his assistants are on two year contracts and will be due next year. Depending on how things go, changes could be necessary. Not all of UT's position groups have shown good progress (namely WR).
 
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