Butch Deserves More Time In Spite of Struggles

#76
#76
BowlBrother85 said:
I would just point out that being fired by an SEC school didn't prevent Will Muschamp or Ed Orgeron from getting other head coaching jobs in the future (and back in the SEC at that). Your take is just wrong.
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You're certainly entitled to that opinion, as am I. Butch was never held in as high regard anywhere as Muschamp. And Orgeron has been a journeyman, a true mercenary, and happened to be at the right place at the right time.

The difference between you and I is that I'm not arrogant enough to call you out and say you're wrong. My word is not gospel....apparently yours is.
 
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#78
#78
13 other SEC teams want to fire their head coach, really? Mason just beat Jones to get to 6-6 and a bowl game they want him fired? Muschamp once again beat Jones with a terrible South Carolina team they want him fired? An average Florida team once again won the east and they want to fire him?
 
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#80
#80
'Boro-vol said:
You're certainly entitled to that opinion, as am I. Butch was never held in as high regard anywhere as Muschamp. And Orgeron has been a journeyman, a true mercenary, and happened to be at the right place at the right time.

The difference between you and I is that I'm not arrogant enough to call you out and say you're wrong. My word is not gospel....apparently yours is.
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If you were suggesting that being fired by Tennessee would keep Butch from getting another good head coaching job in the future, then yes, you were wrong. He has established a good reputation for himself as a recruiter. That was all Ron Zook needed to get another shot at Illinois.
 
#81
#81
GreyWolf1129 said:
Which puts us back into a Kippy Brown type situation. Personally, I don't care for the way Kippy got treated, either. My brother and he were very close, and Kippy is a class act.

So...if Butch bails, now what? Bring in Charlie on a one year "prove you can do the job" contract? Ask Jim Grobe if he wants one more one more year thing? Offer Lane the chance to stiff us again? Phil as an emergency fill? Dress Art Briles up as David Cutcliffe and hope no one notices?

Just curious.

Go Vols.
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Or go for a guy who has worked in big programs with a specialty as a coordinator and see what he can do. The other option would be to offer an NFL guy.

I'm not sure that promoting mid-major HC's is a winning formula unless the guy is just really something special.

Personally I think Fedora could be a solution.

If you are going to go after a mid-major guy, why not someone like Scott Satterfield who has proven he can rise to the level of his competition after taking ASU into BCS?
 
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#82
#82
There were a couple of decent points in the original post. But the season that was referred to with Dabo was his second year. He won 10 games in year three. If you look at the AP top ten, every single coach won big by year three.

I think Butch is a mediocre coach...not awful. He had one decent year at each of his previous stops which he spun into better jobs, but he is an 8-4 coach. Is that better than the last guy (who might have been the worst power five hire in the last 20 years)? Yup. But it just depends on wether or not you think 8-4 is good enough for UT. I would wager that most would say no.

All that being said, he's here for another year. We have a lame duck AD who isn't going to make a major change like that on the way out the door. I'm curious to see how his assistant coaches react. If they all bolt in the offseason like they did for Dooley, I think the writing is on the wall. He could surprise us next year, but I anticipate we'll be searching for the new guy this time a year from now. Hopefully we will be willing to spend the money on someone who has demonstrated they can consistently win at this level, although there are honestly only a handful of coaches that applies to.
 
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#83
#83
The bleeding started when we didn't make it to SEC championship. Now after the Vandy fiasco the hemorrhage has started. Jones is a dead man walking.
 
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#84
#84
BowlBrother85 said:
If you were suggesting that being fired by Tennessee would keep Butch from getting another good head coaching job in the future, then yes, you were wrong. He has established a good reputation for himself as a recruiter. That was all Ron Zook needed to get another shot at Illinois.
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If you will re-read objectively, I'm stating that leaving on his own and controlling the narrative (his sales pitch) will make him much more marketable to another University, than letting his record continue to take a hit, and becoming a bigger joke in the national media....where he is already panned as a sideshow huckster.

You may not like the assertion, and feel your opinion on the matter is ironclad truth, but that doesn't make it so. It only makes it your opinion....much like mine.

Take a deeper look into his recruiting, and his retention, and you'll discover that it really has been smoke and mirrors, and only marginally better than what Derek Dooley achieved here....with a lot less effort.
 
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#85
#85
turdherder11 said:
His staff turnover rate is high. He can't get along with anyone on his staff that has half a brain. He likes yes men. I wouldn't be surprised if shoop leaves at the end of the season.
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The post you answered to is right. The problem IS staff. I don't know if what you say is the case but this staff just doesn't seem to develop the players. Either they can't or the players can't be taught.. I just don't know, but this is what I see.
 
#86
#86
savannahfan said:
The post you answered to is right. The problem IS staff. I don't know if what you say is the case but this staff just doesn't seem to develop the players. Either they can't or the players can't be taught.. I just don't know, but this is what I see.
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Reminds me of a joke about the parent of a kid who graduates from Boot Camp...

"Every member of your platoon was out of step, except for you, Son."

We agree that the problem is staff. We differ in how many names are on that list. Mine only has one.

Go Vols.
 
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#87
#87
'Boro-vol said:
If you will re-read objectively, I'm stating that leaving on his own and controlling the narrative (his sales pitch) will make him much more marketable to another University, than letting his record continue to take a hit, and becoming a bigger joke in the national media....where he is already panned as a sideshow huckster.

You may not like the assertion, and feel your opinion on the matter is ironclad truth, but that doesn't make it so. It only makes it your opinion....much like mine.

Take a deeper look into his recruiting, and his retention, and you'll discover that it really has been smoke and mirrors, and only marginally better than what Derek Dooley achieved here....with a lot less effort.
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I do follow recruiting and this is absolutely ridiculous.
 
#89
#89
DiderotsGhost said:
13 Disappointed SEC Fanbases. We're not alone ... there are 13 SEC schools with disappointed fanbases right now that want to fire their head coaches. There's only 1 school with a happy fanbase (Alabama). Alabama dominated the SEC this season and no one else looked better than average. Consider that at 8-4, we still have the 3rd best record in the SEC.
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Nope.
 
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#90
#90
DiderotsGhost said:
If you want to lose to mediocre teams for the next 5 years, then firing Butch is a great way to get there, hoss.
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Um.... no it isn't "hoss". Keeping a coach that isn't up to the job is the only SURE way of doing that.... and that is exactly what you propose.

Who is your dream candidate that's "on the market"?

Charlie Strong?
Brian Kelly?
Les Miles?
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This is a ridiculous straw man argument. Jones NOT meeting expectations doesn't have ANYTHING AT ALL to do with whoever his replacement might be. NONE.

The only game-changing coach on the market was Tom Herman and he's at Texas now.
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Disagree in both ways.

One, I was glad for LSU's sake that they kept O rather than entering a bidding war for Herman. He's been a HC for two years after being an OC at Iowa St then for Urban. Urban is much like Saban. OSU's O is Urban's O.... not the OC's.

I think it was obvious that Strong didn't work out but I'm not sure they got what they think they got with Herman.

On the other side, we really don't know who the next "Saban" is.... but there's a really good chance that it is not someone on our radar. IMO, the first choice would be a coordinator who has proven he can make an impact without respect to the talent he inherited or an NFL coach. If you are going to promote a lower level coach then IMO you go after someone who has proven they can win and win in a difficult situation.

For instance, I like Scott Satterfield better than Herman. He doesn't have the resume.... but he wins at ASU. NC isn't a recruiting hotbed and Boone isn't high on the list of most recruits for a place to go to college.

The only other way to get a coach like that is to shell out about $6 or $7 mil and try to lure Mike McIntyre or Dan Mullen here. Even those guys aren't guaranteed successes. Frankly, Butch has performed better than guys like Strong, Kelly, and Miles.
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It is very difficult to know what MacIntyre would do. He improves teams but does he HAVE to start from scratch?

Jones hasn't come close to performing as well as Miles or Kelly.

Strong makes an interesting parallel since he competed directly against Jones while at Cincy. Neither has been able to take the step up in competition. Both apparently needed schedules loaded with losing teams to be successful.
 
#91
#91
BUTCH is in over his head................PERIOD. He can't coach high level talent, his recruiting will come to a screeching halt now (YOU WATCH) as these kids are not dummies and they all talk......and I bet they are saying "he might not be there after next year"
 
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#92
#92
'Boro-vol said:
Lol.

Butch's average class...11.5

Dooley's average class...13.0

Now deduct the attrition from Butch's legacy class and see where he's sitting.
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Dooley had the inexplicable hole in OL recruiting that one year but Jones hasn't recruited anyone as good as the 5 he inherited from Dooley.
 
#93
#93
sjt18 said:
He will get another year unless he quits. Although I think it is all but certain that he is NOT a championship caliber coach... I just don't see a way that things line up for him to be fired this year. But this does feel very much like the end of Dooley's second year. Players quitting both on and off the field. Incompetent coaching decisions.

As far as "destroying a recruiting base" goes.... players are more attracted to a new, fresh guy than someone with serious performance question marks.

Now for your main points concerning the "3 or 4 years" and experiments.... YES. That IS the cost of finding a championship coach. If you tolerate a 2nd tier or worse coach then that is exactly all you will get. If you have high standards and make it clear that you'll stand by them.... then you'll only get coaches who think they're up to it.... and you won't keep a coach until he proves he is.


It isn't just the losing. Some of us recognized some tendencies as early as the first Vandy loss that are now apparent to many more people. For one, he has underperformed the talent he had in each of his 4 seasons... not just one. In each of his first two years, he lost a game that he should have won. In the last two, he's lost at least 2 games he should have won if not 3. Championship caliber coaches.... make the right decisions and win those games. Coaches capable of winning championships do not lose to teams like Vandy and USCe. They don't get outcoached by Mason and Muschamp.

Here's a few things in Jones' "body of work" other than the above that suggest he's simply not the guy.

- For 3 straight years the Vols have had higher than normal injuries. Jones did not recognize and remedy the problem. He wrote it off to "bad luck" or the "injury of the year". The plain fact is that other programs are doing something to avoid or prevent injuries that Jones cannot figure out.

- Either his recruiting performance and "recruit profile" have been much less effective than everyone thought or else his player development is simply awful. LB is a great case study as is CB.

- He makes stupid game decisions.

- His game management is probably worse than the head scratcher decisions he makes.

- It is simply inexcusable to have an OL as bad as UT's was to start the season in year 4. That is 100% on Jones for not recognizing the lack of development and correcting it.

- Many have poo-pooed it.... but Jones has attrition consistently at the bottom of the SEC and it isn't just guys who see they aren't going to get a chance to play. Again, either the recruit profile is off badly or else there's something rotten inside the program. Whatever it is... those missing players are guys who should have been contributing right now.

- Jones seldom admits fault in any objective way. He will say things like "I'm responsible" but then he talks about problems that are described as someone else's fault.

- Jones really struggles to see his own flaws or to surround himself with people who make up for his weaknesses. He brought Debord in because he was "comfortable" with him. Maybe someone who challenged his thinking would have been a better choice?
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THIS is ABSOLUTELY SPOT ON - 120%.....I could not have said it better...as I have been saying this for 3 years on losing games that he should not have when you have better talent..............his trend is that he is a 8-4 or 9-3 type coach........just go look at his coaching history.....
 
#94
#94
illvol said:
I don't believe anyone on this board or within our fan base is "Ok with mediocrity". I believe that many believe that, in the long run, being patient and waiting another year with a coach that has shown he can bring 8 wins a year is better than cutting ties, paying buyouts, creating an atmosphere where coaches think they will only get 3 or 4 years to win it all or they too are fired, and destroying a recruiting base by showing no stability. Maybe Butch won't get us to the top but until that guy comes along are we really up for more experiments which is all I see out there right now?
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I certainly can't vouch for the coach and guarantee you that he is going to be the second coming of Neyland. I can tell you that every successful coach has their struggles before the reach the promised land...and the promised land is very short lived. If you look at Saban at MSU , if you look at Joe Pa, Bobby Bowden , Tom Osborne , Spurrier , Lou Holtz ...even the General . Some struggles were worse than others , some longer , but each an every one of them had a period of bad followed by a period of bad . All suffered from mediocrity at various times.

Many like to point to Saban at Alabama . Well Bama can recruit whole teams in state ...and virtually did when Saban arrived and then devote their time and attention and money to national recruits of their choosing. They have slowed in state recruiting ...but in the last two cycles have netted 11 players , 4 and 5 stars , from Alabama. We cant do that with any regularity ! It is not the same speed turnaround .

That being said, unless you know of the next instant results guy , the next legend in the making , I would give the guy a chance to assemble a body of work. Most of the guys that were being peddled the last time have been enormous flops . We are more to find the next Dooley than the next Neyland . But by the logic of many we would have fired the General based on his rocky start and fall offs before he reached unbelievable success.

I was at the game and saw the titanic defensive failure . I know injuries have played a part , but I would love to hear an educated break-down of the failures . Again, I am not stating that CBJ should be given a pass , just reminding everyone that all successful coaches suffered from some level of mediocrity or just plain sucked before they were great.
 
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#95
#95
grobin4300 said:
THIS is ABSOLUTELY SPOT ON - 120%.....I could not have said it better...as I have been saying this for 3 years on losing games that he should not have when you have better talent..............his trend is that he is a 8-4 or 9-3 type coach........just go look at his coaching history.....
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He has a career 8.7 game winning average.
 
#96
#96
grobin4300 said:
BUTCH is in over his head................PERIOD. He can't coach high level talent, his recruiting will come to a screeching halt now (YOU WATCH) as these kids are not dummies and they all talk......and I bet they are saying "he might not be there after next year"
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Recruiting doesn't screech to a halt when teams lose games they are favored in . It happens every season to every team except for a choice few during a choice few seasons. He will close in the top 10 , its just a question of how close he can get to the top
 
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#97
#97
sjt18 said:
Dooley had the inexplicable hole in OL recruiting that one year but Jones hasn't recruited anyone as good as the 5 he inherited from Dooley.
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Uhhh, what??? What are those 5?

The best player that Jones has recruited is Derek Barnett who will be a top 5 pick next April... Name even one player that Dooley recruited who is that good??? Just one.
 
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#98
#98
majic73 said:
Recruiting doesn't screech to a halt when teams lose games they are favored in . It happens every season to every team except for a choice few during a choice few seasons. He will close in the top 10 , its just a question of how close he can get to the top
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Top 10? Holy crap! Lmao.
 
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