#BoycottNRA

#1,376
#1,376
Grand Vol said:
Actually, I was more referring to the pre-siege actions.

The ATF went looking for a fight. They got one. And we can look back in history and see just how wrong they were. Between Ruby Ridge and Waco, they really were pushing the envelope of the police state in a big way.
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I don't disagree. But stating the ATF and FBI intentionally burned those people alive, or somehow infringed on their due process, or killed children, is stupidity of the first order.

All that falls on the davidians. I'm fine with a little 2nd amendment social disobedience, believe in whatever God you want. The kids are a different story. The call to go in wasn't made until the abuse stories were coming out, and knowing they were armed to the teeth, the authorities approached expecting to fight.

Ruby Ridge was awful...completely agree. Waco was not near the same thing. Hiding this behind the second amendment is shameful, to be quite honest.
 
#1,377
#1,377
luthervol said:
That's like you saying your owning an AR 15 endangers no one. That's an opinion (feeling). You may view it as fact, just like the guy who "factually" states he can safely (at least in his own mind) drive 60 through a school zone.
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nope. argument failure.
 
#1,378
#1,378
rjd970 said:
I don't disagree. But stating the ATF and FBI intentionally burned those people alive, or somehow infringed on their due process, or killed children, is stupidity of the first order.

All that falls on the davidians. I'm fine with a little 2nd amendment social disobedience, believe in whatever God you want. The kids are a different story. The call to go in wasn't made until the abuse stories were coming out, and knowing they were armed to the teeth, the authorities approached expecting to fight.

Ruby Ridge was awful...completely agree. Waco was not near the same thing. Hiding this behind the second amendment is shameful, to be quite honest.
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I wonder if fentynal gas could have been an option once everything had fallen apart.

I know they had gas masks, but from footage, they obviously werent wearing them all the time.

And we wouldnt have had to be evil statists like the russians. Couldve had nalaxone prepped and ready to go in and revive them immediately.
 
#1,379
#1,379
Obsessed said:
Majority huh?

Got a link?
CNN, MSNBC, ABC, NBC, CBS, and BET don’t count.
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"The poll found 63 percent of respondents believe weapons like the AR-15 should be banned."

Majority support increased gun restrictions: poll | TheHill

"By more than 2-1, 63%-29%, they say semi-automatic weapons like the AR-15, used by the Florida shooter, should be banned."

Florida shooting: Americans back gun laws, doubt Congress will act

"The nationwide average of 70% is even higher than the 67% that want to ban assault weapons and the 66% that wanted tougher gun laws in general in a recent Quinnipiac University poll. Those figures are the highest ever in the 10-year history of the poll."

Assault weapons ban: 70% of US wants stricter assault weapon laws - Business Insider
 
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#1,380
#1,380
OuterBanksVol said:
"The poll found 63 percent of respondents believe weapons like the AR-15 should be banned."

Majority support increased gun restrictions: poll | TheHill

"By more than 2-1, 63%-29%, they say semi-automatic weapons like the AR-15, used by the Florida shooter, should be banned."

Florida shooting: Americans back gun laws, doubt Congress will act

"The nationwide average of 70% is even higher than the 67% that want to ban assault weapons and the 66% that wanted tougher gun laws in general in a recent Quinnipiac University poll. Those figures are the highest ever in the 10-year history of the poll."

Assault weapons ban: 70% of US wants stricter assault weapon laws - Business Insider
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Thank goodness for the constitution protecting us from mob rule.
 
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#1,381
#1,381
luthervol said:
There are lots of things I would be down with not having my tax dollar help fund....it doesn't work that way.
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Then perhaps we should find a better way.

Liberals have already proven planned parenthood can be entirely funded by private donations.
 
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#1,382
#1,382
rjd970 said:
I don't disagree. But stating the ATF and FBI intentionally burned those people alive, or somehow infringed on their due process, or killed children, is stupidity of the first order.

All that falls on the davidians. I'm fine with a little 2nd amendment social disobedience, believe in whatever God you want. The kids are a different story. The call to go in wasn't made until the abuse stories were coming out, and knowing they were armed to the teeth, the authorities approached expecting to fight.

Ruby Ridge was awful...completely agree. Waco was not near the same thing. Hiding this behind the second amendment is shameful, to be quite honest.
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Nobody is hiding behind the Second Amendment for crying out loud. You're making an argument nobody is advancing.

And what are you going to say to the fact the ATF refused to go in and inspect the weapons? Or the fact they could have picked him up in town? Or that the government went way overboard on the use of force?

Don't act like they didn't have blood on their hands.
 
#1,383
#1,383
rjd970 said:
I don't disagree. But stating the ATF and FBI intentionally burned those people alive, or somehow infringed on their due process, or killed children, is stupidity of the first order.

All that falls on the davidians. I'm fine with a little 2nd amendment social disobedience, believe in whatever God you want. The kids are a different story. The call to go in wasn't made until the abuse stories were coming out, and knowing they were armed to the teeth, the authorities approached expecting to fight.

Ruby Ridge was awful...completely agree. Waco was not near the same thing. Hiding this behind the second amendment is shameful, to be quite honest.
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And respectfully, the call to go in initially was made looking for a fight. They could easily have rolled up with the local Sheriff and not gotten into a gun battle with the residents.
 
#1,384
#1,384
Grand Vol said:
Nobody is hiding behind the Second Amendment for crying out loud. You're making an argument nobody is advancing.

And what are you going to say to the fact the ATF refused to go in and inspect the weapons? Or the fact they could have picked him up in town? Or that the government went way overboard on the use of force?

Don't act like they didn't have blood on their hands.
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It was a publicity stunt. For the ATF raid they had zero ambulances on standby but a press room set up. They had a camera crew to film it. They needed a positive story after Ruby Ridge. Failboat.
 
#1,385
#1,385
Grand Vol said:
Nobody is hiding behind the Second Amendment for crying out loud. You're making an argument nobody is advancing.

And what are you going to say to the fact the ATF refused to go in and inspect the weapons? Or the fact they could have picked him up in town? Or that the government went way overboard on the use of force?

Don't act like they didn't have blood on their hands.
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Would they have been able to pick him up and hold him long enough to execute a warrant on the compound?
 
#1,388
#1,388
DancingOutlaw said:
It was a publicity stunt. For the ATF raid they had zero ambulances on standby but a press room set up. They had a camera crew to film it. They needed a positive story after Ruby Ridge. Failboat.
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They weren't prepared, and they got their ass kicked.

Heads shouldve rolled. Not just for the kids that died later, but the agents who were sent in and died because they were without sufficient planning and numbers.
 
#1,397
#1,397
apevol said:
Would they have been able to pick him up and hold him long enough to execute a warrant on the compound?
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If they had enough evidence for a warrant, they had enough evidence to pick him up and hold him.

My problem with the whole thing was they went in a military style raid in the beginning. You want to serve a warrant for suspected weapons and drug violations? Drug violations that weren't on the warrant, yet the ATF requested inter-agency cooperation for that fact. Which later turned out to be a lie from the ATF. Not only that, but you have ATF Agents changing their story during the official investigation.

The ATF went in guns blazing. There wasn't even a peaceful solution considered on the morning of 28 February.
 
#1,399
#1,399
Grand Vol said:
And respectfully, the call to go in initially was made looking for a fight. They could easily have rolled up with the local Sheriff and not gotten into a gun battle with the residents.
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BS. This guy was preaching the end of the world, and the seven seals of Revelation. This was going to be a fight whether or not The FBI or local authorities were called in. You can't seriously be that naïve.

Grand Vol said:
Nobody is hiding behind the Second Amendment for crying out loud. You're making an argument nobody is advancing.

And what are you going to say to the fact the ATF refused to go in and inspect the weapons? Or the fact they could have picked him up in town? Or that the government went way overboard on the use of force?

Don't act like they didn't have blood on their hands.
Click to expand...

You brought up Ruby Ridge and Waco in the same sentence. The initial meme that started this was in a thread about the NRA. The 2nd amendment is absolutely on the cursory of this incident, and I've heard that argument from others. It's disgusting. This is not Ruby Ridge.

ATF/FBI could have gone in earlier than 51 days. If they were so eager to use force, they would have gone in the first week. The davidians were waiting with guns too, ready to fight. They were using kids as human shields. They knew that would buy them time. This whole idea that the ATF escalated everything is just wrong. After the Ruby Ridge fallout, I seriously doubt they would have gone in the way they did if there wasn't concern for the kids welfare.

And you know good and well, picking up Koresh wouldn't have solved a thing. He would have ordered his followers to stay and fight no matter what, and probably had been preaching that for years. No way anybody was getting into to see those guns and coming out without a fight. They stayed in even after the "assault" started. Some committed suicide. Are you really suggesting if Koresh would have been arrested in town, or they would have waited longer, or one person had gone in to look at the guns, it would have ended differently?

Anything is possible, but I wouldn't bet my lunch money on that one.
 
#1,400
#1,400
VolStrom said:
All you limp wristed F'ers always point to "assualt rifles"
No where in the constitution does it say anything about guns types.
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I'm more concerned over his lack of knowledge of what an "assault rifle" actually is.

And it does say "arms" which is pretty vague. Perhaps the Founding Fathers planned it that way...
 
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