Bob Shoop and his "Magic Show" defense

[Freak]

Injuries have played a huge role, but it's hard to excuse giving up almost 1400 yards of total offense to Kentucky and Missouri.

 

[Cartervol]

The 4-2-5 deal we've been playing works great when you have some dominate DT's. We don't have them, yet we stay in that defense. Everyone is running up the gut against us. I can't see why you wouldn't just play another linebacker and try to get more beef at the line of scrimmage. I'd just take my chance against the Vandy passing game and put 8 in the box all night..

 

[Nash_Vol97]

Players out of position is a key indicator of the problem, which is very well described by UneducatedGuess in the OP of this thread: http://www.volnation.com/forum/tennessee-vols-football/268123-shallow-vols.html .

Losing our first string (and our second string, and even our third string at DT) means that our best players aren't playing, true. But what many don't realize is that it means our players who got the VAST majority of the reps in Spring and Fall camp, as well as throughout the season, aren't playing.

We are not only dropping in talent when we go to the bare cupboard, we're also dropping in training and experience and coordination.

We are decimated on defense. Folks acknowledge that, but then scratch their heads and say, "yeah, but it's more than just losing those key players."

Yeah, it is. It's losing the team synchronization that comes with all those hundreds and hundreds of reps they took together.

Cohesive team play (TEAM play) comes from hours and hours working together. You can largely overcome that with the absence of one or two or even three out of eleven. We're missing as many as eight of our defensive two-deep in many of the games this year.

We have some kid off the sidewalk trying to play lead tuba in our orchestra, a friend of the sick drummer picking up his sticks, and the janitor on first seat alto sax, and we're wondering why not just those three, but the whole band sounds off?

UneducatedGuess did a great job explaining where we are on defense. Pity more folks here won't put down their pitchforks and learn from him.

Exactly.

Imagine the defense is a restaurant kitchen. Every person has their role and their station. Everything works in unison and relies on each other. Then One day the head chef leaves along with Half the kitchen. You still have enough to get the job done but it's less smooth and mistakes happen. You bring in new hires but they don't know the recipes, the timing or the procedures. So you are helping teach them while trying to keep up your efficiency level at your station and now both your station and the new hires position are under performing. The kitchen as a whole is now performing bad. The cooks that left threw off the whole kitchen.

This is why our defense is under performing. It all started with injuries. We are inexperienced, we are blowing assignments, and we're brutally small in the heart of our defense (DT). You cant scheme to fix this.

 

[Seattle Hillbilly]

Perhaps the scheme is just complicated to pick up in one year, particularly for backups? Though if so, why didn't things get simplified as the injuries mounted? Is Shoop as stubborn as many say Butch is?

 

[Seattle Hillbilly]

Exactly.

Imagine the defense is a restaurant kitchen. Every person has their role and their station. Everything works in unison and relies on each other. Then One day the head chef leaves along with Half the kitchen. You still have enough to get the job done but it's less smooth and mistakes happen. You bring in new hires but they don't know the recipes, the timing or the procedures. So you are helping teach them while trying to keep up your efficiency level at your station and now both your station and the new hires position are under performing. The kitchen as a whole is now performing bad. The cooks that left threw off the whole kitchen.

This is why our defense is under performing. It all started with injuries. We are inexperienced, we are blowing assignments, and we're brutally small in the heart of our defense (DT). You cant scheme to fix this.

Smaller than Appy State's DLs?

And in keeping with your kitchen analogy, maybe the menu should be pared down until the staff get's back up to speed.

 

[Cartervol]

Missing Tuttle real bad. That was the one DT we couldn't lose. Danny O'brien i guess couldn't leave the wacky backy alone so that one hurt too. He was solid in there. McKenzie hasn't really made much of a impact yet, losing him hurt too though. No beef. Then there is Johnson with a hip deal. So no help there. Kongbo resisted the move inside until they basically forced him to play. What a mess this deal is..

 

[VFL-82-JP]

Its been happening all year. Even before all the dline injuries the secondary has been lost. Nice try.

There wasn't a "before the losses" this season. From practically the very first play of the very first game, we were missing one of our two defensive co-captains, and the leading tackler on the team. Shortly after that, we lost the other co-captain and by far our best defensive back.

And the hits just kept on rolling, all season long. We've been down as many as eight members of the two-deep for some games, with the losses concentrated heavily at DT and LB. Right where every team since A&M has been running rampant on us.

O'Brien ... Tuttle ... McKenzie ... Lewis ... Vickers ... Johnson ... Bain. Possibly others that I'm missing. That's just the DLine, not even counting LBs or backs!

Want to try LB? JRM ... Sapp ... Kirkland ... McDowell ... again, I'm likely missing others. Other than Colton Jumper, that's our entire 2-deep, gone.

And again, this has to be underscored, it's not just the drop in talent when they're gone. It's the loss of coordination and teamwork and synchronicity...the whole glue that turns 11 individuals into a squad, into a team, is chiseled away. That's the REAL cost of losing so many of our two-deep.

And here's how it gets even worse: even when one of the lads comes back from injury, he's not 100%. And the team synchronization isn't 100%, either. Because the defense grows and adapts as the year goes on...they adjust to each other, and find ways to overcome collective weaknesses. But that starter or 2nd stringer who just got back, he doesn't know about all those little adjustments, he remembers the defense as it was when he left. He may have picked up some of the changes from the sidelines, but not anywhere near all of them. And even the changes he's aware of, he hasn't practiced those with the others.

So even when you get one of the 1st and 2nd string back, it's not as good as it was when the season started, for them or anyone else on the squad.

Okay, Florida had a few key injuries, and still beat an LSU team that also had a few key injuries.

That's nothing like what has hit our lads this season. Night and day different.

This isn't Bob Shoop's defense, it's a Jekyll and Hyde patchwork creation, put together out of desperation and lack of alternatives.

 

[Nash_Vol97]

Smaller than Appy State's DLs?

And in keeping with your kitchen analogy, maybe the menu should be pared down until the staff get's back up to speed.

App states tackles were small you are correct. But they were also experienced upper class man who had been playing DT all through out college. They knew how to use their small frames. For us we are talking about two sophomores who up until this season were defensive ends.

And the menu (shoops scheme) was simplified and pared down. That has been established, shoop has admitted he has tried to simplify it. But the players are still learning on the job. Players are still thinking and reacting instead of reacting and playing fast. And regardless of scheme if your DT can't at least absorb a few blocks so that your linebackers can get to the ball carrier, you're screwed.

 

[08Vol]

Looking at Penn State this year I think we need to ask the question "was it Franklin's defense and Shoop just kind of oversaw it?" Looks like it was the same set up with Saban and Smart.

 

[rdk4121]

Last night it felt like we desperately needed another OLB out there. We are a little strapped on LB depth right now, but to me these last two games you had to load the box and make them throw the ball. You know your defense can't stop the run but yet you still leave them to fend for themselves. Doesn't make sense.

 

[615vols]

There wasn't a "before the losses" this season. From practically the very first play of the very first game, we were missing one of our two defensive co-captains, and the leading tackler on the team. Shortly after that, we lost the other co-captain and by far our best defensive back.

And the hits just kept on rolling, all season long. We've been down as many as eight members of the two-deep for some games, with the losses concentrated heavily at DT and LB. Right where every team since A&M has been running rampant on us.

O'Brien ... Tuttle ... McKenzie ... Lewis ... Vickers ... Johnson ... Bain. Possibly others that I'm missing. That's just the DLine, not even counting LBs or backs!

Want to try LB? JRM ... Sapp ... Kirkland ... McDowell ... again, I'm likely missing others. Other than Colton Jumper, that's our entire 2-deep, gone.

And again, this has to be underscored, it's not just the drop in talent when they're gone. It's the loss of coordination and teamwork and synchronicity...the whole glue that turns 11 individuals into a squad, into a team, is chiseled away. That's the REAL cost of losing so many of our two-deep.

And here's how it gets even worse: even when one of the lads comes back from injury, he's not 100%. And the team synchronization isn't 100%, either. Because the defense grows and adapts as the year goes on...they adjust to each other, and find ways to overcome collective weaknesses. But that starter or 2nd stringer who just got back, he doesn't know about all those little adjustments, he remembers the defense as it was when he left. He may have picked up some of the changes from the sidelines, but not anywhere near all of them. And even the changes he's aware of, he hasn't practiced those with the others.

So even when you get one of the 1st and 2nd string back, it's not as good as it was when the season started, for them or anyone else on the squad.

Okay, Florida had a few key injuries, and still beat an LSU team that also had a few key injuries.

That's nothing like what has hit our lads this season. Night and day different.

This isn't Bob Shoop's defense, it's a Jekyll and Hyde patchwork creation, put together out of desperation and lack of alternatives.

Notice i said before all the DLINE injuries. Like i said, injuries certainly play into it. But they dont excuse not having guys like bates or bryant with at least a few seasons here ready to contribute. Or guys like moseley and foreman never looking for the ball. Its not all injuries, its part coaching staff.

 

[jps2194]

There wasn't a "before the losses" this season. From practically the very first play of the very first game, we were missing one of our two defensive co-captains, and the leading tackler on the team. Shortly after that, we lost the other co-captain and by far our best defensive back.

And the hits just kept on rolling, all season long. We've been down as many as eight members of the two-deep for some games, with the losses concentrated heavily at DT and LB. Right where every team since A&M has been running rampant on us.

O'Brien ... Tuttle ... McKenzie ... Lewis ... Vickers ... Johnson ... Bain. Possibly others that I'm missing. That's just the DLine, not even counting LBs or backs!

Want to try LB? JRM ... Sapp ... Kirkland ... McDowell ... again, I'm likely missing others. Other than Colton Jumper, that's our entire 2-deep, gone.

And again, this has to be underscored, it's not just the drop in talent when they're gone. It's the loss of coordination and teamwork and synchronicity...the whole glue that turns 11 individuals into a squad, into a team, is chiseled away. That's the REAL cost of losing so many of our two-deep.

And here's how it gets even worse: even when one of the lads comes back from injury, he's not 100%. And the team synchronization isn't 100%, either. Because the defense grows and adapts as the year goes on...they adjust to each other, and find ways to overcome collective weaknesses. But that starter or 2nd stringer who just got back, he doesn't know about all those little adjustments, he remembers the defense as it was when he left. He may have picked up some of the changes from the sidelines, but not anywhere near all of them. And even the changes he's aware of, he hasn't practiced those with the others.

So even when you get one of the 1st and 2nd string back, it's not as good as it was when the season started, for them or anyone else on the squad.

Okay, Florida had a few key injuries, and still beat an LSU team that also had a few key injuries.

That's nothing like what has hit our lads this season. Night and day different.

This isn't Bob Shoop's defense, it's a Jekyll and Hyde patchwork creation, put together out of desperation and lack of alternatives.

Here is why I struggle. Yes, the players you mentioned all have missed games though I wouldn't throw Bain in there as he never played (only got in against Tech). Against UK, the only players you mentioned that did not play were JRM, KM, Shy, Johnson and Sapp (+ O'brien that you didn't mention). Jumper has played all year, definitely a drop off from JRM, but we can't say he hasn't produced and has played enough games to eliminate the he's new excuse. That leaves only our 3 DT's that we are now on 3rd or 4th string. DT's are vital to the run game, but does missing 3 players lead to what we saw against UK and 4 (+TK) to what we saw yesterday?

It contributes, but I don't think explains how pitiful we looked.

 

[VFL-82-JP]

Here is why I struggle. Yes, the players you mentioned all have missed games though I wouldn't throw Bain in there as he never played (only got in against Tech). Against UK, the only players you mentioned that did not play were JRM, KM, Shy, Johnson and Sapp (+ O'brien that you didn't mention). Jumper has played all year, definitely a drop off from JRM, but we can't say he hasn't produced and has played enough games to eliminate the he's new excuse. That leaves only our 3 DT's that we are now on 3rd or 4th string. DT's are vital to the run game, but does missing 3 players lead to what we saw against UK and 4 (+TK) to what we saw yesterday?

It contributes, but I don't think explains how pitiful we looked.

I think injuries, and the loss of teamwork and synchronization and simple knowledge of the playbook that comes with those injuries, is 80% to 90% of the shortfall we see on the defense.

Sure, there's another 10%-20%, like some of our DBacks getting beat way too often, largely because of failing to use sound fundamental techniques rather than lack of raw talent.

So injuries aren't everything.

But when you're looking at teams rushing up the gut on us for hundreds and hundreds of yards, as started in the A&M game and has gotten progressively worse each game since, it is PRECISELY the DT and LB injuries that are the source of the fault.

 

[KBVol]

It's true. Our safeties seem to get completely lost at times.

Safeties, corners, linebackers, defensive ends and defensive tackles. And it's been this way since game one vs App State, before and after the injuries.

 

[jps2194]

I think injuries, and the loss of teamwork and synchronization and simple knowledge of the playbook that comes with those injuries, is 80% to 90% of the shortfall we see on the defense.

Sure, there's another 10%-20%, like some of our DBacks getting beat way too often, largely because of failing to use sound fundamental techniques rather than lack of raw talent.

So injuries aren't everything.

But when you're looking at teams rushing up the gut on us for hundreds and hundreds of yards, as started in the A&M game and has gotten progressively worse each game since, it is PRECISELY the DT and LB injuries that are the source of the fault.

I hope you are right, but I'm concerned it is more than that. When you have approximately 70% of your defense that has started the majority of games this year, it's concerning how many yards and points we've given up the last 2 games.

 

[photovol]

florida freshman played well on "D" vs. lsu.

No one wants to admit the Vols lack the talent on defense, regardless of injuries

 

[Mo_TownVol]

What makes me feel bad is outside of VolNation nobody in the country is talking about how devastating our injuries are. Sure it gets a small mention on TV when we play, but my point is that every team at this time of year is dealing with injuries. We are the only team and fans that use it as an excuse for having a record breaking bad defense.

 

[Cartervol]

No one wants to admit the Vols lack the talent on defense, regardless of injuries

Yeah it's bad behind the 1's. The question is . Why is it so bad bad behind the 1's in year 4 of Jones.. We're seeing our future depth chart now. It doesn't look good.

 

[VolForLife83]

I do believe the secondary skill coach is the one glaring upgrade we need. Then maybe line backers. I find it hard to give up on Strip yet. Absolutely love that guy and think he gets a mulligan this year.

Yeah I know people want DeBoards head but I don't see it when you look at our offensive production on the year. It's been difficult to look at at times but our offensive stats aren't terrible. Now our defensive stats....

Our offense ain't good because of scheme and play calling, I'll tell you that. We need an upgrade to go along with the downgrade in play makers next year

 

[VFL-82-JP]

It's not "bad behind the 1s." It's bad behind the 2s and 3s. Huge difference, there.

Jumper is a "2". He's doing well.

Tuttle and KMac were 2s. They're gone.

We're even beyond the 3s in the DT rotation; we're at the "weren't even playing this position or this side of the ball in August" level.

Behind the 1s...pffft.

 

[arkyvol]

I'm just glad this season is quickly coming to an end. If there were five more games, I'm confident somebody would run up 1,000 yards on offense.

 

[Cartervol]

It's not "bad behind the 1s." It's bad behind the 2s and 3s. Huge difference, there.

Jumper is a "2". He's doing well.

Tuttle and KMac were 2s. They're gone.

We're even beyond the 3s in the DT rotation; we're at the "weren't even playing this position or this side of the ball in August" level.

Behind the 1s...pffft.

Jumper was lost all day yesterday. DT is a huge hole no doubt. Still no excuse for the defense we've seen the last two weeks.

 

[nash101]

Shoop is not stubborn at all -- he changed his terminology to the same as what we have to speed the learning curve. With the injuries he's had to adapt a lot of things on the fly -- he's gone from an aggressive defender to more of a "bend but don't break" style. While the defense yields tons of yards, if they make a stop on 4th down or force a field goal it's a win as long as our offense can score.

I think we are seeing that Butch is not the prolific recruiter people brag about. Last year we signed a lot of 3 star depth. This year do we have any 4 & 5 star recruits? It's fine to sign some high 3 stars diamonds in the rough, but our main rivals are loading up on higher caliber players and that will hurt us in the future.

Shoop has worked miracles with what he had left to use. The difference in this mess and Sunseri is that we do make the key stop and the staff realizes the offense needs to carry the day and score all they can.

 

[tbones0711]

martinez has been with CBJ for quite a while and he's one coach, along with mahoney that i feel need to hit the road. I got down on Debord for awhile but he's been around the game with Nfl and major college experience and he likely can handle the coming years. We'd fare a lot better with a good QB coach,IMO. Thigpen needs a good talking to in stearn fashion. 1 or 2 things have to be occurring on defense....1) we're not recruiting players with the athletic ability to mesh with Shoop's defensive scheme....2) we are recruiting good enough players and our coaches aren't developing the talent properly...for about the 8th time this year i'm gonna state the big error that keeps repeating itself and that's our DB's ability to get turned around and find the ball. Too many bad things are gonna occur when a DB has his back to the play. In short, (to save time), all the adjusting, hip turning, establishing position has to occur at the start of the play close to the LOS. Making the body turn 180 degrees at full speed places a DB in a disadvantage. Running with your back to the play invites trouble...underthrown passes result in PI calls repeatedly and some teams have QB's that throw the back-shoulder pass to take advantage of DB's who are constantly out of position. There's no doubt that UT's DB's are being taught to face read as well as watch the reciever's hands. They aren't very good at that method...better to be on the outside of the reciever where locating the ball at full speed requires only turning at the neck a few degrees. A lot of pros utilize this method but have also seen some doing the face read too. IMO there's a lot of room for improvement in this area providing we can recruit good athletic players...the faster, the better.

 

[photovol]

Jumper was lost all day yesterday. DT is a huge hole no doubt. Still no excuse for the defense we've seen the last two weeks.

The LB's and whole secondary look completely lost at times, that's coaching as well as experience.......face it, it's been years since UT had a really good defense and they must upgrade the talent, to get any better on Defense.....Shoop or no Shoop