Barnett vs Garret, not as close as you might think

#28
#28
The Artful Dodger said:
Lord. But I guess Kendrick vs daeshon Hall isn't that much better. Can we clone chance Hall before Saturday?
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I actually think that Kendrick is a little better than Chance Hall. If you go back and watch both the Florida and the UGA game, Kendrick does a pretty great job and gives Dobbs plenty of time. I watched the Arkansas/TexAM game last night...Myles had 2 solo tackles, 1 assist and one fumble recovery that fell in his lap AFTER he had been blocked out of the hole by Dan Skipper.

I would have thought that Garrett would have had success against a guy who's 6'10; seems like it would have been easy for Myles to get under his pads and push him back. But Skipper (a former 3 star just like Kendrick) didn't have trouble with Garrett all night.

I think Kendrick will surprise a lot a people in this match up, and (yes I know it's been mentioned a ton already) his experience practicing against a guy like Barnett will pay off HUGE! I'm not going to sit here and say that Garrett isn't a good football player. But I do think people are sorely mistaken if they think he's just going to handle Kendrick all day.

P.S. Thank the Lord they put Kendrick in for Richmond and that Hall is back in the line up. Jack Jones and Chance feed off each other, and Robertson doesn't feel like he has to somewhat abandon his assignment to help Kendrick like he did with Richmond.
 
#29
#29
Daloth said:
Some of you who know me know I like to do statistics on things. I'm that weirdo who wrote an essay on Derek Barnett in the off season comparing him to all the best D lineman in the country. Well, all of this week so far all I've seen is Garrett vs Barnett hype, and most of the average people choosing Garret. So I decided to do some digging to see if the numbers have changed at all one way or the other. Here's what I've come up with.






Statistically, they're extremely similar. Barnett has an enormous lead in tackles, as I talked about the last time I wrote about Barnett, nobody comes close to him when it comes to DE tackles. Garret has a fair number more of QB hurries, but they also don't translate to a much higher number of deflections, sacks, or anything else caused. And Garret has a much higher turnover cause rate, but Barnett's turnovers cause much more impact on the game immediately.

From a statistical standpoint you have a hard time picking one clearly over the other.

But, this is a huge SEC and nationally relevant game with playoff implications, not the little sisters of the poor. So, I decided to see what both have done in SEC play AND against AP top 25 teams.





This is where suddenly things fly off the rails. Barnett has 10 more TFL against SEC opponents, and 7 more in his top 25 games. Furthermore, Barnett has a mind boggling 91% of his sacks against SEC competition, whereas Garret only has 43% of his, or for a flat number Barnett has 10 more sacks in SEC play than Garret, roughly a full season of sacks for either player. Barnett then also has 35% of his sacks (8) coming in his 10 AP top 25 games, averaging almost 1 a game. Garret has .5 a game exactly (4), or 16%.

Again, Barnett blows him out of the water in solo and total tackles in both categories. In fact, against top 25 opponents, Barnett has as many solo and total tackles as Garret does against the entire SEC in 3 years.

But where Garret leads normally? In QB hurries especially, Barnett overtakes him in the SEC 10-9 and in AP top 25 games they are tied 3 to 3. In turnovers caused, Garret has an interception and fumble against AP top 25 teams, but Barnett's one fumble resulted in 6 points for his defense. In SEC play Garret has 4-1 traditional turnovers caused, but when factoring in the safety it becomes 4-2, and safeties are a bit tricky to score, but I'd wager most coaches would take 1 safety over 2 fumbles any time. One more point to add, all of Garret's turnovers came in the 2015 season. And when I last wrote about D linemen, I made sure to mention that every single one who was "great" had one breakout season in one statistical category, and it usually happened in the 2nd year. It's highly possible, at least based on the numbers, that Garret had his one "great" season last year and it was in turnovers.

Now, none of this is to say Barnett is clearly better than Garret. Garret has a higher ceiling if he plays to the top of his ability athletically, and most have him ranked higher on NFL draft boards because of it. However, when it comes to playing against good and great competition, it isn't even a contest. Barnett is on a whole other level than Garret, so much so you could easily argue that Garret has "padded his stats" against weaker teams.

This isn't to say Garret won't do much Saturday. However, from a statistical/historical standpoint, it won't be much compared to his better brother in the SEC.
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Thanks for the analysis
 
#30
#30
The_Big_Orange said:
No, you're wrong about that. You should have taken your analysis one step further and looked at Tennessee's past schedules and not just the division they are in. We play the best from the west every year too. During Garrett & Barnett's tenure we've played Alabama every year, Arkansas once and Aubrurn once during their strong year. We also played a top ranked Oklahoma twice during this period of time and blew out a #13th ranked Northwestern. On the flip side it is you guys who have played Vanderbilt and USC, but not UGA or FL once.
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He also had three sacks against Ole Miss his freshman year.
 
#31
#31
We've seen Barnett elevate his level of play against the best competition this season, and when injuries and others situations called for him to take over a game, i.e. Florida and Georgia. I bet those comparisons about him and Garrett have not been lost on him, or the Tennessee OL. It would not surprise me to see him have a monster game this weekend. For sure he will not disappear this Saturday!!
 
#32
#32
DocAg said:
Comparing what Garrett and Barnett have done in the SEC is comparing apples to oranges. Garrett plays in the SEC west and goes against LSU, Alabama, Ole Miss and Arkansas which have been known to have the top OL in football each year for the past several years. Barnett lines up against Missouri, Vanderbilt, Kentucky, and South Carolina each year. Florida and Georgia have good to great offensive lines, but they would be at the bottom of the SEC west in terms of OL. Both are great. If you want to tell me that Barnett is a little better or Garrett is a little better I wouldn't argue either way, but be fair about the comparison and the competition.

Honestly I think you guys will come away more impressed with our 3 safeties Evans, Watts and Wilson. Those guys fly to the football and look to take your head off each time. I look forward to Dobbs and Hurd going against them. Both are physical players so it should be a great scene.
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Ole Miss' OL has not been that great other than Tunsil, and I have no idea if these guys lined up against Tunsil. But, if you want to compare Garrett and Barnett just against the teams that we have played against the West:

These numbers are from 2014 and 2015 against Alabama (twice), Ole Miss, and Arkansas:
- Barnett- 20 tackles, 4 sacks
- Garrett- 13 tackles, 3 sacks, 2 pass deflections

Garrett lines up against South Carolina every year and had 3 total sacks against them in 2014 and 2015. Also, Barnett had one sack against OU (playoff team) last year while Garrett tallied multiple sacks against Lamar, Rice, Louisiana Monroe, and Nevada.

I don't think playing against the West has impacted it all that much. Both are great players, and I hope both get paid.
 
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#33
#33
After all the fussing about these two the past couple of years, I'd love for DB to have the better game.
 
#34
#34
Halph66 said:
This information is eye opening.

The only thing that I will say when comparing SEC opponents is that the SEC East has been far less dominate during the past few years when compared to the SEC West.
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See post above yours, we also play bama every year and never get an easy draw from the west.
 
#36
#36
DocAg said:
Comparing what Garrett and Barnett have done in the SEC is comparing apples to oranges. Garrett plays in the SEC west and goes against LSU, Alabama, Ole Miss and Arkansas which have been known to have the top OL in football each year for the past several years. Barnett lines up against Missouri, Vanderbilt, Kentucky, and South Carolina each year. Florida and Georgia have good to great offensive lines, but they would be at the bottom of the SEC west in terms of OL. Both are great. If you want to tell me that Barnett is a little better or Garrett is a little better I wouldn't argue either way, but be fair about the comparison and the competition.

Honestly I think you guys will come away more impressed with our 3 safeties Evans, Watts and Wilson. Those guys fly to the football and look to take your head off each time. I look forward to Dobbs and Hurd going against them. Both are physical players so it should be a great scene.
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This is why I also compared them against AP top 25 opponents, not just SEC. So people wouldn't argue West vs East, despite the fact TN has played against the best the West has to offer almost every year that these stats are from and A&M has played a terrifyingly easy out of conference schedule compared to Tennessee. But really, no matter how you spin it the numbers clearly show Barnett is better against better competition both in conference and out. 57% of Garret's sacks come against non SEC competition. That's literally 2/3 of his most impressive stat against teams not as good as the rest. And not even OU or Texas, or even Virginia tech. He has more sacks from Lamar, Rice, and Nevada than 8 top 25 games.

I'm not saying he's not good. I'm saying his numbers do not show up in SEC play or against top end teams consistently. So much so that he cannot be in the discussion with Barnett in the same metrics.
 
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#37
#37
sechamp2012 said:
?
Who decides whether it is or is not a QB hurry.. That seems very subjective versus a sack or an interception which are absolutes.
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NCAA decides it for the most part. It's "subjective" but its far more accurate than say an umpire's strike zone.
 
#38
#38
Tennessee Waltz said:
If holding were objectively called in this conference, Barnett would have half again as many sacks and TFLs.
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What I wish more than anything is that CFB and the NFL started keeping track of how often players demand double and triple teams. People truly don't appreciate what a demanding Nose Guard or Tackle does for a defense when it takes two interior lineman and a full back to stop them to run the ball up the middle or set up even a small pass.
 
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#39
#39
Tennessee Waltz said:
If holding were objectively called in this conference, Barnett would have half again as many sacks and TFLs.
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Fact! I watch tackles put him in a headlock and drag him to the ground right in front of refs 6 or 7 times a game. I have no idea how they justify not calling that.
 
#41
#41
ntxVOL said:
Garret will be in the backfield all day long. It's not just Garret either, their team as a whole gets after the QB better than the Vols.

Third and long is going to be bad for our offense, the Vols must stay ahead of the chains. Their run defense is much improved this season and that's what makes them tough on D. Their formula for success is actually pretty simple, stop the run, force you into a passing situation, then get after the QB.
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First down play-action passes will be the difference. Croom, Byrd & Wolf over the middle will be critical in this game. They will very likely sellout against the run early on. Dobbs (DeBord) must make them pay for it. We don't throw enough early in games for my liking. And it puts us at distinct disadvantage because we aren't physical enough to run on teams when they know it's coming. I think the passing game is our key to victory. We know what Chavis will do. It's up to us to attack it on Saturday.
 
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#43
#43
The_Big_Orange said:
No, you're wrong about that. You should have taken your analysis one step further and looked at Tennessee's past schedules and not just the division they are in. We play the best from the west every year too. During Garrett & Barnett's tenure we've played Alabama every year, Arkansas once and Aubrurn once during their strong year. We also played a top ranked Oklahoma twice during this period of time and blew out a #13th ranked Northwestern. On the flip side it is you guys who have played Vanderbilt and USC, but not UGA or FL once.
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Nailed it.
 
#44
#44
I normally lurk, but this was a great read. Good job OP. I personally think Barnett has a better pro career. He can be effective in multiple schemes.
 
#45
#45
Garrett is banged up with bad Ankle. We'll see how much it affects him. The other DE for aTm is very good too. Need to wear them out with gashes up the middle and long Dobbs runs.
 
#47
#47
Their fans are incredibly ignorant on the Barnett vs Garrett argument. It's forgivable (I guess) since Derek doesn't receive as much media attention for whatever reason.
 
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#48
#48
ntxVOL said:
Garret will be in the backfield all day long. It's not just Garret either, their team as a whole gets after the QB better than the Vols.

Third and long is going to be bad for our offense, the Vols must stay ahead of the chains. Their run defense is much improved this season and that's what makes them tough on D. Their formula for success is actually pretty simple, stop the run, force you into a passing situation, then get after the QB.
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Yeah all that works against pocket passers.. Only problem is.. Dobbs isn't your run of the mill pocket passer. If the line doesn't hold up, he needs to get gone.. That will slow that rush down when he runs out of there for 30 or 40 yards. Chief's defenses were mostly burnt toast against mobile QB's. His system hasn't changed. It's up to Dobbs.. If he's on then he'll make them pay for being over aggressive..
 
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#49
#49
ItsAllVols said:
They say Garnett has better measurable than Barnett
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He's a much better post player for sure. Although, aging a bit, he has compensated for that by his ability to step away from the basket and hit the long jumper. Barnett won't stand a chance against him IMO.
 
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#50
#50
You better believe Barnett had this game circled before the season. He wants to outperform Garrett badly in a matchup of the 2 best lineman in the country for all the bragging rights. I know they will not face off one time this game since they play the same position but still the 2 best at their position will be on the same field Saturday and I'm sure there will be tons of NFL scouts watching. I will almost guarantee Barnett shows up like he always does in big games. Question is will Garrett? We will see...
 
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