Barnes’ offense

[adam.vol]

DuckInAPen said:
Aidoo's already had too many years in the program. I proposed Awaka in the hope that Barnes may not yet have succeeded in coaching all the offense out of him

This has to be true, because it made me laugh too much.

 

[DuckInAPen]

DuckInAPen said:
Aidoo's already had too many years in the program. I proposed Awaka in the hope that Barnes may not yet have succeeded in coaching all the offense out of him

This has to be true, because it made me laugh too much.

Please be sure to read it in blue font! I meant it not at all as a barb against Barnes but as a parody of the trope that gets bandied about here with embarrassing frequency.

 

[DuckInAPen]

Karate for defense only!

Sounds good, then, but you know Purdue's president is gonna send out a snarky tweet about it anyway.

 

[Zues1]

The trend here, shooters that are not consistent and disappear in games and on the big stage.
Lack of a dominant big.
This is a trend we have seen for several years.

 

[ColinS]

This offense constantly gives the defense what they want. Long contested jump shots. Why hasn't Aidoo figured out why he is wide open from outside every possession. He is being dared to shoot because he can't make perimeter shots.

 

[MinisterofDef#92]

This offense constantly gives the defense what they want. Long contested jump shots. Why hasn't Aidoo figured out why he is wide open from outside every possession. He is being dared to shoot because he can't make perimeter shots.

Agree Aidoo has to be a threat in the paint as does Awaka. We have to find ways to make the game easier by getting more points in the paint (post-up, transition) and at the line which will take the pressure off the perimeter shooters.

 

[CAVPUT]

James has to stop being passive in big games and take the ball to the rim more. He's got an NBA body--use
it to dribble-drive to the basket or to get into the lane for his nice short jumpers. He must be more aggressive.

The problem with our bigs is that they aren't go-to guys. You can't look for either of them with, say, 10 seconds left on
the shot clock and know that they can create and get a decent shot off. This is why we end up shooting too many threes, which
are only too many lately because our shooting has been embarrassingly bad.

Nice thought, but if he's not made that a consistent part of his game by now, what makes you think he's going to suddenly start doing it now? Honestly, I can't recall the last time I saw JJJ attack the rim and dunk the ball. Even Gainey has one this year that I can recall. And all of us remember Knechts monster. It's just not who JJJ is as a player. He's a glue guy who knows how to play defense the Barnes way and sometimes will be "on" with his shooting and have a nice night scoring. Can't hang your hat on him just like you couldn't with ON when he was here. Definition of insanity comes to mind.

 

[cardvolfan]

You can’t possibly be trying to deny the fact he sits most of the game right?

I take it you’ve been to all the games personally and have put the clock on his standing/sitting time. What is your definition of “most of the game?” Also, in games we’ve won against quality opposition, what percentage of time does he stand?

Your schtick is ludicrous.

 

[Orange.]

Don’t need to.

The guy is a big baby. In wet diapers.

 

[aWhiteLoftonChism]

Nothing in this post explains why Tennessee misses so many wide open shots and layups. The point of an offensive system is to get open shots. If Tennessee never got open shots, you’d have a point, but Tennessee gets…and misses…lots and lots of open shots.

This!!! This has been the case the last three years! The coaching staff can only do so much. The guys on the floor have to knock them down!

 

[MinisterofDef#92]

So, teams don't have to "worry" about our ineffective post players and we have a "big man" with no skill set for a pick and roll but ALL this somehow changes with this other offensive scheme you have not named where they would then have to be "accounted for wherever they are on the floor"?

L
M
A
O

Crickets from @BigBabyWilliams

Shocked...lol

 

[cardvolfan]

This offense constantly gives the defense what they want. Long contested jump shots. Why hasn't Aidoo figured out why he is wide open from outside every possession. He is being dared to shoot because he can't make perimeter shots.

This is false. If you’ve followed his pre-college and Tennessee years, you would know that Aidoo actually does shoot from midrange and 3 pretty darn well. Barnes would not allow these shots in games if he didn’t hit them reasonably well in practice. Your premise that “he can’t make perimeter shots” is incorrect. It’s interesting that people love to bash Barnes about things that they just have no clue about.

I do agree that we need him to hit these shots at a good rate because it does open things up elsewhere, but Barnes gives him the green light. Ultimately, the threat has to match the expectations or his green light will change to yellow, then red. Confidence from the coaching staff is big for these guys.

 

[Special Ed]

I'd give my left Vol for a dominant big man.

 

[calban]

Just posted about this in another thread, but this is the reason we can’t breakthrough. It’s specifically his offensive plan.

He sticks with the circle motion offense, which is highly effective with a dominant big man (think Grant) that commands a double team. Or at least someone down low that teams at least have to pay attention to and are threatened by that would allow the wings and point to find open threes and driving lanes.

With no teams worried about the post it allows them to play aggressively on our wing motion offense. Not to mention that the pick and roll is ineffective with no big man that has the skill set for them to prioritize. This isn’t an Aidoo or Awaka hate post either. I love the both of them. In a different offensive they would have to be accounted for wherever they are on the floor. Even if we played a slightly adjusted offense they would get their opportunities down low along with the pick and roll being more effective. Which would open it up a lot more for our point and wings.

We have the golden egg we’ve needed the last few years in Knecht. He can do it all. But if Barnes sticks to this circle motion offense in which he’s shown no willingness to adjust in years, it might be more of these games down the stretch this season.

Whole season left to play, including a guaranteed decent to high tourney seed. If Barnes can find it in him and adjust a bit on offense we can make a deep run in March. This is the team and talent we need to breakthrough to a Final Four. But if Barnes continues the stubbornness that he’s shown no signs of changing… I don’t see this team getting to a Final Four even though the talent is there.

He can at least stand the **** up and coach the game. Sick of seeing him sitting on the bench.

Probably could have opened up a good discussion here if you'd left that last line off. Most on here wouldn't understand what you're talking about when you say Circle motion and thus react to that line. One of our most knowledgeable posters doesn't participate anymore because he's fed up with the officiating, which I understand and agree with. Wish he'd come back. (ZJ)
Think it's more developing chemistry with the guys we added for offense and think our bigs are adequate enough to run circle 5 out when everyone gets on the same page. First 2 losses could benefit a lot as far as teaching tools for Barnes and hopefully we see a big advance in the chemistry at Chapel Hill. GBO

 

[VolGee4]

This has been known for a while.


“Rick Barnes isn’t an offensive coach, so don’t tell me that."

-- Bobby Knight, to Missouri coach Frank Haith (The Kansas City Star, 2012)

Is Rick Barnes Too Offensively Challenged To Win A Title?

With the start of the basketball season, there is one question that is on the mind of Texas basketball fans.

www.burntorangenation.com

This article does not support a poor offensive system. His worst offensive efficiency during these 10 years at Texas was 39th. In 8 of 10 years, Texas had a top 25 offensive efficiency. If we have a top 25 offensive efficiency with a top 5 defensive efficiency, we will win a whole lot of games.

 

[BigBabyWilliams]

Agree Aidoo has to be a threat in the paint as does Awaka. We have to find ways to make the game easier by getting more points in the paint (post-up, transition) and at the line which will take the pressure off the perimeter shooters.

This is literally what I’m pointing out in my post that started this thread.

 

[BigBabyWilliams]

Probably could have opened up a good discussion here if you'd left that last line off. Most on here wouldn't understand what you're talking about when you say Circle motion and thus react to that line. One of our most knowledgeable posters doesn't participate anymore because he's fed up with the officiating, which I understand and agree with. Wish he'd come back. (ZJ)
Think it's more developing chemistry with the guys we added for offense and think our bigs are adequate enough to run circle 5 out when everyone gets on the same page. First 2 losses could benefit a lot as far as teaching tools for Barnes and hopefully we see a big advance in the chemistry at Chapel Hill. GBO

You’re definitely right about that. I should’ve left that out for sure. It seems the rest of my post flew over the heads of some.
I just was trying to point out the deficiencies we have running circle motion like this without a threat down low.

 

[BigBabyWilliams]

Crickets from @BigBabyWilliams

Shocked...lol

Was spending time with the fam. Sorry I didn’t get back to you fast enough. Yes I think things would change a lot if we adjust and game plan around our offensive strengths and weaknesses. Was pointing out that Barnes sticks with it regardless.

The circle motion offense we run is most efficient with a big that makes the defense shrink to the paint. If we don’t have that it allows the defense to be more aggressive on the motions and our wings and pg.

I believe there are adjustments we could make to tailor our offense more towards our strengths of which we have many.

Was just relaying the fact that Barnes is stubborn and has shown over decades he sticks with what he likes regardless of skill set we have on the floor.

 

[BigBabyWilliams]

Thing about this offense is you don't need some dominant big man playing the inside. You just need someone with good basketball IQ. A center doesn't usually play the low post, in this offense, he plays the high post mostly. Why? Because it's a motion offense, he doesn't play down low because that limits the space needed for off-ball movement and space to drive.

There's nothing wrong with that kind of offense. It only becomes a problem when players aren't executing and hitting their shots. We created plenty of opportunities, they just didn't score.

You can see what a successful form of this offense looks like when you watch a team like the Denver Nuggets, who do have a great big man in Jokic. But notice where and how he plays his role in it.

Exactly what I was trying to point out. Notice how when Jokic catches at the elbow the perimeter defense shrinks towards the paint. Given the skill set of our big men it’s going to be tough to thrive if we continue to run our offense like this.

Aidoo and Awaka have plenty of strengths. Passing from the elbow/high post area, turning to face up with a reliable jumper, and turning to face up with a rip through to attack the basket aren’t at the top of that list.

So adjusting are offensive game plan accordingly would help significantly. Which boils back down to my entire point of the post. Barnes stubbornness.

 

[MinisterofDef#92]

This is literally what I’m pointing out in my post that started this thread.

It literally is not what you posted...if you had, I would have given you a like. Suggest you go reread your post and then edit it accordingly.

 

[MinisterofDef#92]

Was spending time with the fam. Sorry I didn’t get back to you fast enough. Yes I think things would change a lot if we adjust and game plan around our offensive strengths and weaknesses. Was pointing out that Barnes sticks with it regardless.

The circle motion offense we run is most efficient with a big that makes the defense shrink to the paint. If we don’t have that it allows the defense to be more aggressive on the motions and our wings and pg.

I believe there are adjustments we could make to tailor our offense more towards our strengths of which we have many.

Was just relaying the fact that Barnes is stubborn and has shown over decades he sticks with what he likes regardless of skill set we have on the floor.

So, what is this other offense we should run (or adjustments as you said in the post above)?

And I think your presumption of stubbornness is a lazy take. You do realize the narrative a few years ago was that CRB wouldn't change with the times and give shooters the green light to shoot 3's like Muss at Bama...now I constantly have to read about how we shouldn't shoot so many 3's. Or how he wouldn't let highly rated incoming freshman play through some of their growing pains (esp on D) then Johnson, Springer, Chandler, ZZ and Phillips happened.

Bottom line...I choose to believe CRB actually knows how the game needs to be played and he develops his players accordingly. Are there things that should be constructively criticized and are adjustments needed...sure. But the amount of unreasonable and asinine posts I have to read through is frankly emberassing especially when we have a program with the most wins in the SEC going back to the 2017 season.

 

[calban]

Exactly what I was trying to point out. Notice how when Jokic catches at the elbow the perimeter defense shrinks towards the paint. Given the skill set of our big men it’s going to be tough to thrive if we continue to run our offense like this.

Aidoo and Awaka have plenty of strengths. Passing from the elbow/high post area, turning to face up with a reliable jumper, and turning to face up with a rip through to attack the basket aren’t at the top of that list.

So adjusting are offensive game plan accordingly would help significantly. Which boils back down to my entire point of the post. Barnes stubbornness.

Then again it may be too early to tell. We just faced 2 of the top 5 defenses who have been schooled well in stopping the circle motion and the passing needed to execute it. Our guys are still learning to play together as a team(new guys) and building the chemistry and trust to execute. We may know more after Monday's game. We've got the tools, need some tweaking and just a little more patience in our fandom.

 

[Thunder Good-Oil]

Maybe the offense that Barnes chooses to run has more to do with the limited practice time that is available to perfect BOTH the offensive and defensive schemes. I don’t know the Xs and Os, but maybe the defense is much harder to learn but the returns when perfecting it are invaluable. So instead of overwhelming players with too much to learn, the offense isn’t as complex.

Also, maybe the offensive concepts are based on things that most or all players already know. So it might be a highly efficient approach.

 

[walkenvol]

Maybe the offense that Barnes chooses to run has more to do with the limited practice time that is available to perfect BOTH the offensive and defensive schemes. I don’t know the Xs and Os, but maybe the defense is much harder to learn but the returns when perfecting it are invaluable. So instead of overwhelming players with too much to learn, the offense isn’t as complex.

Also, maybe the offensive concepts are based on things that most or all players already know. So it might be a highly efficient approach.

I may be misunderstanding the rules, but I thought there was a limit on organized team practice but not on voluntary coaching contact? I recall the media talking about CRB having a desk in the gym and not using a traditional office very much. If this is accurate, seems like there’s ample opportunity to teach both offense and defensive concepts?

 

[Thunder Good-Oil]

I may be misunderstanding the rules, but I thought there was a limit on organized team practice but not on voluntary coaching contact? I recall the media talking about CRB having a desk in the gym and not using a traditional office very much. If this is accurate, seems like there’s ample opportunity to teach both offense and defensive concepts?

They still need time for classes and studying and skirt chasing and NIL commitments out of 168 hours a week. At least for now. In the next 10 years they might become athletic department employees and not have to stay academically eligible.