Atlanta Hawks/The Highlight Factory Thread

#103
#103
GahLee said:
You're about to get some statistical data thrown your way that will somehow make it seem as though Williams is a decent player.
Click to expand...

I don't care if Harris falls off a motorcycle this summer and never plays a minute for Atlanta. Getting rid of the two years left on Marvin's contract is a win for the Hawks.
 
#105
#105
Devin Harris could kill five people in a homicidal rampage in Midtown and Ferry will never be known in Atlanta as "the idiot that traded Williams for Harris."
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 person
#107
#107
I don't know what the argument could possibly be. Is there an advanced metric which will no doubt claim that Marvin is "better" than Harris? Probably. Is it even possible that there's some metric which claims Marvin is good "value" for his salary? Sure, maybe. You can use advanced stats to prove all sorts of crazy things. All I know is that chaining yourself via multi-year contracts to nonentities like Marvin Williams will kill you in the NBA. And now Utah gets to be chained to him instead of Atlanta. That's outstanding.

And that's without even getting into what a giant swollen walking symbol of Hawks incompetence Marvin Williams is. There is zero chance Danny Ferry ever takes any heat at all in Atlanta for that trade. None.
 
#108
#108
Vercingetorix said:
Devin Harris could kill five people in a homicidal rampage in Midtown and Ferry will never be known in Atlanta as "the idiot that traded Williams for Harris."
Click to expand...

I didn't say he'd be "known" for it. I recognize most people don't like Williams. I think he's unfairly evaluated because he doesn't give them the 20/10 they expected.

Marvin Williams doesn't have some giant contract. He only made $7.5M last year. Williams was top 50 player this year and has been well above average for 4 straight years.

Devin Harris on the other hand made $9.3M last year, and though he was slightly above average in 2012, he's been pretty horrible overall the last 4 years.
 
#109
#109
n_huffhines said:
I didn't say he'd be "known" for it. I recognize most people don't like Williams. I think he's unfairly evaluated because he doesn't give them the 20/10 they expected.

Marvin Williams doesn't have some giant contract. He only made $7.5M last year. Williams was top 50 player this year and has been well above average for 4 straight years.

Devin Harris on the other hand made $9.3M last year, and though he was slightly above average in 2012, he's been pretty horrible overall the last 4 years.
Click to expand...

"Well above average"? I don't know what metric you're looking at to tell you that, but I've watched Marvin Williams's entire career, and he isn't even close to "well above average." He's a body. No question he has an even worse reputation than he really deserves because of where the Hawks took him, but Marvin's not an above average player. Nice job talking yourself into him though.

I don't follow the Jazz; they're in a position where all they need is a serviceable body at that position, and they're so flush with cap room that it doesn't matter that they're okay with buying two years of him. But a good GM ought to be able to plug holes with marginal players as good as Williams on a year-to-year basis, and if you're trying to clear cap space to rebuild the team like the Hawks are, getting rid of deadweight salary like Marvin's is a godsend.
 
#110
#110
It's not a bad deal for either side. But it's a good deal for Atlanta if only because it gives the fanbase a glimmer of hope that the reign of incompetence is over. In no way will Ferry ever be discredited because he traded Williams for Harris.

As for the Jazz, they seem to be clearing up some back court issues, but they still need to move Milsap or Jefferson to clear up the front court. As an aside, the Jazz needed a PG to run an offense through, a distrubtor. I don't like the Mo Williams move.

edit: Need a spell check on my browser.
 
Last edited:
#111
#111
To tell you the truth, I think the Jazz were just trying to dump Harris. They don't have much of a need at forward...they are actually in desperate need of better PG play.

Williams is one of the best rebounders in the league at his position. He scores efficiently (even if it's just 14 points per 36 minutes), and he doesn't make mistakes.
 
#112
#112
Weezy said:
It's not a bad deal for either side. But it's a good deal for Atlanta if only because it gives the fanbase a glimmer of hope that the reign of incompetence is over. In no way will Ferry ever be discredited because he traded Williams for Harris.

As for the Jazz, they seem to be clearing up some back court issues, but they still need to move Milsap or Jefferson to clear up the front court. As an aside, the Jazz needed a PG to run an offense through, a distrubter. I don't like the Mo Williams move.
Click to expand...

Horrible
 
#113
#113
Weezy said:
It's not a bad deal for either side. But it's a good deal for Atlanta if only because it gives the fanbase a glimmer of hope that the reign of incompetence is over. In no way will Ferry ever be discredited because he traded Williams for Harris.

As for the Jazz, they seem to be clearing up some back court issues, but they still need to move Milsap or Jefferson to clear up the front court. As an aside, the Jazz needed a PG to run an offense through, a distrubter. I don't like the Mo Williams move.
Click to expand...

I think it's probably a reasonable deal for both teams because they have different motives right now. The idea that Ferry could ever be "the idiot that traded Marvin Williams" is just too funny.
 
#114
#114
Vercingetorix said:
"Well above average"? I don't know what metric you're looking at to tell you that, but I've watched Marvin Williams's entire career, and he isn't even close to "well above average." He's a body. No question he has an even worse reputation than he really deserves because of where the Hawks took him, but Marvin's not an above average player. Nice job talking yourself into him though.
Click to expand...

I'd like to hear your assessment of him, since you've watched him so much. I'm of the belief that our eyes lie to us, and they lie badly. There is no way for us to remember all the good plays, and all the bad plays, and fairly assess a player's worth. This is why GMs like Michael Jordan suck at their jobs. He's the greatest player of all time, and he can't properly assess talent? There has to be a lot more to it than just watching.

What does Williams do well, and what does he do poorly?
 
#117
#117
Totally forgot that Dwight is from Atlanta.

Bill Plashke (from LA) said ATL is on Chris Paul's list.
 
#118
#118
n_huffhines said:
What does Williams do well, and what does he do poorly?
Click to expand...

He's a good defender and a pretty good rebounder. His offensive skills are sort of utility infielder-quality; he's neither particularly good nor bad at anything in particular. His effort level appears to be inconsistent and mostly poor. He'll have one game where he'll attack the rim with gusto and look like a world beater, then disappear for a month.

He could be a nice bench player on a good team, but he hasn't worked as a starter despite the Hawks' best efforts to make him one. He's a great example of why you shouldn't give unremarkable players long-term contracts.

There are hundreds of players in the NBA. Marvin can't be anywhere near the top 50.
 
#119
#119
Vercingetorix said:
He's a good defender and a pretty good rebounder. His offensive skills are sort of utility infielder-quality; he's neither particularly good nor bad at anything in particular. His effort level appears to be inconsistent and mostly poor. He'll have one game where he'll attack the rim with gusto and look like a world beater, then disappear for a month.

He could be a nice bench player on a good team, but he hasn't worked as a starter despite the Hawks' best efforts to make him one. He's a great example of why you shouldn't give unremarkable players long-term contracts.

There are hundreds of players in the NBA. Marvin can't be anywhere near the top 50.
Click to expand...

And they took him over Chris Paul and Deron Williams, which makes him 10% worse than he actually is.
 
#120
#120
Vercingetorix said:
He's a good defender and a pretty good rebounder. His offensive skills are sort of utility infielder-quality; he's neither particularly good nor bad at anything in particular. His effort level appears to be inconsistent and mostly poor. He'll have one game where he'll attack the rim with gusto and look like a world beater, then disappear for a month.

He could be a nice bench player on a good team, but he hasn't worked as a starter despite the Hawks' best efforts to make him one. He's a great example of why you shouldn't give unremarkable players long-term contracts.

There are hundreds of players in the NBA. Marvin can't be anywhere near the top 50.
Click to expand...

I just don't agree with that. He was 9th in the league at his position in rebounds....playing only 24 mpg. Here are how the top 5 at his position did in rebounds per 36:

Durant = 7.5
Lebron = 7.6
Marion = 8.7
Wallace = 6.8
Gay = 6.2

And Williams gets you 7.1

Rebounding is 85% effort (controlling for position) and I find it interesting that you question his effort. Points are overrated, and he's not valued because he doesn't shoot a ton, IMO. He's a high IQ version of Luis Scola. He doesn't turn the ball over, and he has better shot selection.
 
#121
#121
Yeah, I've been watching him play for seven years, but you've been looking at his page on basketball-reference.com for 24 hours. You probably know more about him than I do already.

I question his effort because his effort sucks. He gets a lot of rebounds in part because the Hawks have terrible big men other than Horford and the ball has to bounce somewhere. He's not "not valued because he doesn't shoot a ton"; one of the reasons he's been criticized is that he doesn't shoot enough. He doesn't drive enough. He is tentative. His listlessness is one of the reasons why the Hawks have had to lean so heavily on iso-Joe for the past several years. Maybe he doesn't screw up much, but he doesn't really do anything postive to help you much either.

I'm as big a fan of advanced sports metrics as anybody, but this is as close to a litmus test as you'll find. If your metric is seriously telling you that Marvin is close to a top 50 player, then your metric is broken.
 
#122
#122
And I actually like Marvin and hope that a chance of scenery is good for him. It's not his fault that Billy Knight was an idiot.
 
#123
#123
Vercingetorix said:
Yeah, I've been watching him play for seven years, but you've been looking at his page on basketball-reference.com for 24 hours. You probably know more about him than I do already.

I question his effort because his effort sucks. He gets a lot of rebounds in part because the Hawks have terrible big men other than Horford and the ball has to bounce somewhere. He's not "not valued because he doesn't shoot a ton"; one of the reasons he's been criticized is that he doesn't shoot enough. He doesn't drive enough. He is tentative. His listlessness is one of the reasons why the Hawks have had to lean so heavily on iso-Joe for the past several years. Maybe he doesn't screw up much, but he doesn't really do anything postive to help you much either.

I'm as big a fan of advanced sports metrics as anybody, but this is as close to a litmus test as you'll find. If your metric is seriously telling you that Marvin is close to a top 50 player, then your metric is broken.
Click to expand...

This doesn't make any sense. He is fighting with Pachulia, Horford, and Smith for boards. They may not be the best all-around big men, but all of them are very good rebounders.
 
#124
#124
n_huffhines said:
This doesn't make any sense. He is fighting with Pachulia, Horford, and Smith for boards. They may not be the best all-around big men, but all of them are very good rebounders.
Click to expand...

They are? Funny then how the Hawks keep finishing near the bottom of the league in rebounding when all their forwards are "very good rebounders." If Marvin's a good rebounder fighting other good rebounders on his team for the ball...then why are the Hawks a poor rebounding team?
 
#125
#125
Vercingetorix said:
They are? Funny then how the Hawks keep finishing near the bottom of the league in rebounding when all their forwards are "very good rebounders." If Marvin's a good rebounder fighting other good rebounders on his team for the ball...then why are the Hawks a poor rebounding team?
Click to expand...

They were 5th in the league in defensive rebounding %. That is probably the single best stat to illustrate a team's rebounding ability.
 
New posts
You must log in or register to reply here.
Advertisement



Back
Top