Atheism makes you smart, but don't take my word for it...

#51
#51
IPorange said:
There is a limitation to the human condition, in that we are so used to perceiving time and space the way we do, it is much easier to chalk up things we don't understand to a mysterious entity, than to realize the relative nature of our perceptions. The justification for God is often spoken of in terms of needing a chronological chain of events leading to our existence. What if the nature of the universe isn't a chronological line? If that sounds absurd, consider that God's existence is by definition non-linear. No matter what you believe, both belief systems are dealing with the same problems, which come down to the limitations of the human experience and the human intellect.
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I need no "justification", but what ever floats their boat. Good point though.
 
#52
#52
Justification was a poor word choice, but I guess it served its purpose. I just mean the reasoning used when discussing why one feels there must be a God.
 
#53
#53
IPorange said:
Justification was a poor word choice, but I guess it served its purpose. I just mean the reasoning used when discussing why one feels there must be Q.
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FYP!

Q_portrait.jpg
 
#54
#54
IPorange said:
Justification was a poor word choice, but I guess it served its purpose. I just mean the reasoning used when discussing why one feels there must be a God.
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I got ya. Know what you meant. You are reinforcing my original point. It is not the Christian that need the "proof", it is the athiest.
 
#56
#56
T-TownVol said:
I got ya. Know what you meant. You are reinforcing my original point. It is not the Christian that need the "proof", it is the athiest.
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I think both need proof, and neither has anything definitive because the question isn't one that lends itself to the material environment we live out our entire existence in. It's a big place out there.
 
#57
#57
IBlvNTmWrk said:
My biggest issue with your example is that it starts with "dice that include the number 6". If dice represent some type of living organism, and the "6" represents a protein or amino acid, then where did the dice, proteins and amino acids come from? The essence of life still has to exist somewhere for there to be a "chance" to form a living thing out of them to begin with.
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I was simply showing that your calculations (or Hoyles rather) was completely wrong. With what we know about the universe, evolution and probability of life supporting planets makes perfect mathematical sense, and doesn't need the guiding hand of a celestial deity. So you agree that the calculation behind the large numbers Hoyle came up with is bogus?

As far as where the dice comes from (ie proteins and amino acids, etc) I refer back to what I said about the unknown and limitation of how we perceive reality. We don't really know what "time" is or how it works, and it very well could be that the universe and everything in it didn't have to come from somewhere or have a beginning...but I don't ultimately know, and neither does anybody else...scientists and priests included.
 
#58
#58
rjd970 said:
I was simply showing that your calculations (or Hoyles rather) was completely wrong. With what we know about the universe, evolution and probability of life supporting planets makes perfect mathematical sense, and doesn't need the guiding hand of a celestial deity. So you agree that the calculation behind the large numbers Hoyle came up with is bogus?

As far as where the dice comes from (ie proteins and amino acids, etc) I refer back to what I said about the unknown and limitation of how we perceive reality. We don't really know what "time" is or how it works, and it very well could be that the universe and everything in it didn't have to come from somewhere or have a beginning...but I don't ultimately know, and neither does anybody else...scientists and priests included.
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Seriously.......... I will resist for a short time.....
 
#59
#59
IPorange said:
I think both need proof, and neither has anything definitive because the question isn't one that lends itself to the material environment we live out our entire existence in. It's a big place out there.
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See, I do not care that it is "a big place out there". I know who is in control.
Athiests need the things of which you speak, Christians do not.
 
#60
#60
IPorange said:
It was your premise that man FIRST worshipped the God of the Bible. What evidence do you have to support this, in the face of thousands of years of archeological evidence to the contrary?
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Yes that is my premise. My evidence? Faith. Faith is the evidence of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. I know you will not accept this, but thats ok.


What about all the archological evidence that points to the Bible being true? Example, Joseph, it was commonly taught that there was not a person named Joseph that was a figure in Egypt that did what the Bible says that Joesph did. There is evidence now. Pilate the same.
 
#62
#62
Oldvol75 said:
Yes that is my premise. My evidence? Faith. Faith is the evidence of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. I know you will not accept this, but thats ok.


What about all the archological evidence that points to the Bible being true? Example, Joseph, it was commonly taught that there was not a person named Joseph that was a figure in Egypt that did what the Bible says that Joesph did. There is evidence now. Pilate the same.
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This is the "game" that he wants you to play.
 
#63
#63
T-TownVol said:
This is the "game" that he wants you to play.
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I know, but I'm in a playful mood today. Besides I do have alittle ammo stored away. Besides I am fixing to head out the door for church but will be back afterwards. I really enjoy just hearing what the other side says, it helps me more than they will ever know.
 
#68
#68
I love how extreme liberals claim to be so open-minded, but the OPPOSITE of open-minded is defensive. You mention anything that they might disagree with, and they get incredibly defensive (and offensive).
Why do some people insist that if you don't believe exactly what they believe, then you must be wrong? I, for one, enjoy learning about other points of view. I even plan on watching the new Capitalism movie by Michael Moore once it comes out on DVD. I want to see it for a few reasons. First of all, I want to see anti-capitalists just have a different opinion from me, or if they really are just idiots. Secondly, I want to understand how an anti-capitalism movie could charge movie ticket sales, and not realize that irony.
 
#69
#69
Oldvol75 said:
Yes that is my premise. My evidence? Faith. Faith is the evidence of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. I know you will not accept this, but thats ok.


What about all the archological evidence that points to the Bible being true? Example, Joseph, it was commonly taught that there was not a person named Joseph that was a figure in Egypt that did what the Bible says that Joesph did. There is evidence now. Pilate the same.
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You might as well just say "hurff durff the bible says so" for all your answers instead of typing anything out if you're going to use faith as your evidence.
 
#70
#70
Panthro said:
I love how extreme liberals claim to be so open-minded, but the OPPOSITE of open-minded is defensive. You mention anything that they might disagree with, and they get incredibly defensive (and offensive).
Why do some people insist that if you don't believe exactly what they believe, then you must be wrong? I, for one, enjoy learning about other points of view. I even plan on watching the new Capitalism movie by Michael Moore once it comes out on DVD. I want to see it for a few reasons. First of all, I want to see anti-capitalists just have a different opinion from me, or if they really are just idiots. Secondly, I want to understand how an anti-capitalism movie could charge movie ticket sales, and not realize that irony.
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I'm willing to bet, you'll realize they really are just idiots.
 
#71
#71
Panthro said:
I love how extreme liberals claim to be so open-minded, but the OPPOSITE of open-minded is defensive. You mention anything that they might disagree with, and they get incredibly defensive (and offensive).
Why do some people insist that if you don't believe exactly what they believe, then you must be wrong? I, for one, enjoy learning about other points of view. I even plan on watching the new Capitalism movie by Michael Moore once it comes out on DVD. I want to see it for a few reasons. First of all, I want to see anti-capitalists just have a different opinion from me, or if they really are just idiots. Secondly, I want to understand how an anti-capitalism movie could charge movie ticket sales, and not realize that irony.
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Nice post. However, rather than renting the DVD you may want to consider downloading a free copy from the numerous available websites to equally demonstrate capitalism, free enterprise, and American ingenuity. :)
 
#72
#72
I have 3 separate lines of questions:

1. Why is it exactly that atheists have to have proof, but not Christians? Wouldn't the null hypothesis be "there is no God," and then it would be up to people to disprove this null hypothesis? Why would one just assume that, and not the negative? I don't see why proof isn't necessary, other than for the purposes of rhetoric.


2. How does one account for pre-biblical peoples and beliefs, let alone the fossil record, geology, etc?

3. If everyone had a fair shot at knowing of God and Jesus and all this sort of thing, how come there is no monotheistic religion outside of the Middle East? Were all the Native Americans wicked and sinful? All the Asians? All the Northern Europeans? Or were they just unlucky because their ancestors cast aside those beliefs and are thus doomed through no fault of their own?
 
#73
#73
T-TownVol said:
this is getting creepy
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Agreement isn't necessarily a good thing here. People demand evidence and rely on rational thinking with everything...political persuasion, economics, buying a car, buying groceries, taking tests, etc...except in matters of religion, where faith is all of a sudden a viable substitute. And not only is it accepted as a good reason, it is championed. And then we wonder why all wars, killings, and social injustices in the name of God look so scandously stupid after the fact.
 
#74
#74
IPorange said:
I have 3 separate lines of questions:

1. Why is it exactly that atheists have to have proof, but not Christians? Wouldn't the null hypothesis be "there is no God," and then it would be up to people to disprove this null hypothesis? Why would one just assume that, and not the negative? I don't see why proof isn't necessary, other than for the purposes of rhetoric.
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Atheists make the claim that their belief system is not a religion; to dismiss calls for proof of their system as being unnecessary means that they act on philosophy and faith alone....thus making atheism a religion.
 
#75
#75
rjd970 said:
Agreement isn't necessarily a good thing here. People demand evidence and rely on rational thinking with everything...political persuasion, economics, buying a car, buying groceries, taking tests, etc...except in matters of religion, where faith is all of a sudden a viable substitute. And not only is it accepted as a good reason, it is championed. And then we wonder why all wars, killings, and social injustices in the name of God look so scandously stupid after the fact.
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It all boils down to the simple fact that I beleive that the Bible is the inspired word of God. The athiest does not and goes about trying to find evidence to the contrary. There are many archeological finds that prove the words of the Bible to be true.
The athiest only acknowledges the Bible as a history book. I beleive that it takes far more "faith" to make the Evolution Theory leap than it does to believe in the one true God. Your "rational thinking" dig is noted.
 
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