Any news on to’o to’o and crouch?

#51

Longshank

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#51
Never understood why a person would log onto his team’s rival message board or call in show.
99 Gator is okay but still don’t understand unless he is a Vol fan too. Oh well. To each his own.
You guys are the funnest group, not just in the sports world, but on the internet. During the butch years I had bad depression and a stop bye this site for a few minutes made me smile and laugh.
The passion is real.
I think outside opinions of a team are more on par with national views of a team and often more realistic as they don't overvalue players and coach.
 
#52

VFL-82-JP

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#52
You guys are the funnest group, not just in the sports world, but on the internet. During the butch years I had bad depression and a stop bye this site for a few minutes made me smile and laugh.
The passion is real.
I think outside opinions of a team are more on par with national views of a team and often more realistic as they don't overvalue players and coach.
Longshank, if you believe you can get an unbiased, realistic view of our football team by listening to our worst rivals, well, that seems a bit gullible.

You ask a Red Sox fan for an objective assessment of the Yankees? Pakistan for a balanced view on India? Yoko Ono for an unbiased perspective of Mark David Chapman?

No, it doesn't make sense to ask a bama or gator or dawg or 'dore for a "realistic" assessment of our team. Fool's errand, that. Or perhaps a touch of Stockholm Syndrome.
 
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#54

ThreatLevelOrange

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#54
When a lid enters he transfer portal, id pull their scholarship and tell them good luck, your not welcome back. You can't live, eat or workout with the team. When you enter the transfer portal your gone IMO.
I guess everything is on a case by case basis. Even Saban - who always has a demand for roster spots that exceeds supply- has let players back that went into the portal.

But in our case at this exact moment, I want 0 players on the team that aren’t buying in. This is the problem with changing coaches every few years. Except for maybe Butch’s last year, our roster is always a mix of players recruited by 2 different staffs. The culture is in dire need of a reset.
 
#56

vol94

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#56
You guys are the funnest group, not just in the sports world, but on the internet. During the butch years I had bad depression and a stop bye this site for a few minutes made me smile and laugh.
The passion is real.
I think outside opinions of a team are more on par with national views of a team and often more realistic as they don't overvalue players and coach.
I understand your point and all about others voicing there opinions. But I don’t visit other teams message boards. That’s just me.
 
#59

kckempf

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#59
I’d rather have 80 who want to be here than 80 who want to be here and 5 who aren’t sure.

Go Vols.
If To’o To’o takes his name out of the portal and commits to a coach he just met a few weeks ago, it’s more than enough evidence that he wants to be here.

People are acting like players should have unlimited loyalty to their schools and not demand any loyalty in return. Loyalty is a dirty word that means you get something for giving nothing. If you want your people to remain loyal, treat them better than the other guy would treat them.

For our guys in the portal, I hope they talk to the new coaches and see what the plan is for the, before going somewhere else. If anybody goes to Bama, we boo the crap out of them, not because they are “disloyal” but because to hell with Bama.
 
#60

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#60
Loyalty is a dirty word that means you get something for giving nothing. If you want your people to remain loyal, treat them better than the other guy would treat them.
Whoa, whoa, whoa.

Man, you have a Salvador Dali sense of the concept of loyalty. Badly distorted. Like, you've melted it and it is now dripping off the side of a counter kind of distorted.

1615131849017.jpeg

Loyalty is about thinking more of something else than you do of yourself. Loyalty to your spouse and children means you'd run into a burning building to get them out. Loyalty to your unit means you'd volunteer for the desperate mission because it needs to get done. Loyalty to your team or school or nation means you see some things as bigger and more important than yourself. Loyalty is not a synonym for love, but the two values are very closely related.

Loyalty isn't bought and sold. It's not a matter of out-bidding the other guy. That's not how you win loyalty, it's only how you win an employee.

I could have agreed with your thoughts on To'o To'o if you hadn't gone so freaky on this concept.

Loyalty is no dirty word. It is, along with charity and integrity and respect, one of the most noble of human motivations.
 
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#64

kckempf

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#64
Whoa, whoa, whoa.

Man, you have a Salvador Dali sense of the concept of loyalty. Badly distorted. Like, you've melted it and it is now dripping off the side of a counter kind of distorted.

View attachment 356079

Loyalty is about thinking more of something else than you do of yourself. Loyalty to your spouse and children means you'd run into a burning building to get them out. Loyalty to your unit means you'd volunteer for the desperate mission because it needs to get done. Loyalty to your team or school or nation means you see some things as bigger and more important than yourself. Loyalty is not a synonym for love, but the two values are very closely related.

Loyalty isn't bought and sold. It's not a matter of out-bidding the other guy. That's not how you win loyalty, it's only how you win an employee.

I could have agreed with your thoughts on To'o To'o if you hadn't gone so freaky on this concept.

Loyalty is no dirty word. It is, along with charity and integrity and respect, one of the most noble of human motivations.
When would you ever ask for someone for loyalty when you would otherwise prioritize their well being? If you expect "loyalty" from your spouse and children without you yourself putting their needs before your own, you've got your priorities out of order. You're never in any position to demand loyalty from someone else, because the way that you treat someone should make clear that they are a priority to you.
 
#65

VFL-82-JP

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#65
When would you ever ask for someone for loyalty when you would otherwise prioritize their well being? If you expect "loyalty" from your spouse and children without you yourself putting their needs before your own, you've got your priorities out of order. You're never in any position to demand loyalty from someone else, because the way that you treat someone should make clear that they are a priority to you.
Hmm.

Who ever said anything about "asking someone for loyalty" or "expecting loyalty," or "demanding loyalty"?

I was talking about giving loyalty: to my family, my unit, my team, university, and nation. Not demanding. Giving.

You seem to be tilting at windmills. Each of your sentences describes a condition that I never proposed. You're arguing with someone, but it's not with me.

...

As an aside, you seem to be insinuating that loyalty only works if it is two-way flow. you can only expect loyalty from someone to whom you have already shown loyalty. But this is not accurate. And it only takes one super-strong example to prove:

Every soldier in the US military swears loyalty, not to a person, but to the Constitution of the United States. An inanimate object, which can not in any way return loyalty to those troops. Hmm. Loyalty that is not reciprocated. Worth thinking about.

Not only can loyalty flow in just one direction, but these one-way commitments can be among the strongest in a person's life.

...

Anyway, good luck. I think you need to think through "loyalty" some more, really explore what it means to you. Your understanding of it does not yet seem to be very deep.
 
#66

kckempf

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#66
Hmm.

Who ever said anything about "asking someone for loyalty" or "expecting loyalty," or "demanding loyalty"?

I was talking about giving loyalty: to my family, my unit, my team, university, and nation. Not demanding. Giving.

You seem to be tilting at windmills. Each of your sentences describes a condition that I never proposed. You're arguing with someone, but it's not with me.

...

As an aside, you seem to be insinuating that loyalty only works if it is two-way flow. you can only expect loyalty from someone to whom you have already shown loyalty. But this is not accurate. And it only takes one super-strong example to prove:

Every soldier in the US military swears loyalty, not to a person, but to the Constitution of the United States. An inanimate object, which can not in any way return loyalty to those troops. Hmm. Loyalty that is not reciprocated. Worth thinking about.

Not only can loyalty flow in just one direction, but these one-way commitments can be among the strongest in a person's life.

...

Anyway, good luck. I think you need to think through "loyalty" some more, really explore what it means to you. Your understanding of it does not yet seem to be very deep.
In the situation we're talking about, which is whether a player is "loyal" to the University, it's definitely the fans demanding loyalty from the players. None of us can demand the loyalty of the players to the University, to the coaches, or to ourselves. The concept doesn't exist. There isn't an oath of loyalty for players either, so the concept of being loyal like a soldier doesn't come into play (which doesn't go into the fact that soldiers sign a contract with the state as well as taking an oath, so there is a responsibility both ways to start).

If loyalty is only given, never demanded, then it never goes beyond a personal commitment, and betraying "loyalty" does nothing more than defining the personal character of the one who puts importance in personally "being loyal". Absent a public oath, you couldn't ever know if someone held themselves to that standard, and hence couldn't judge them by it. So it's definitely not worth mentioning in the case of the players.

And if your employer ever talks about "loyalty", it definitely means they're looking for you to give something of value without receiving it. That's the main place you're going to hear about loyalty in day to day life, and that's why loyalty is a dirty word.
 
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#67

VFL-82-JP

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#67
In the situation we're talking about, which is whether a player is "loyal" to the University, it's definitely the fans demanding loyalty from the players. None of us can demand the loyalty of the players to the University, to the coaches, or to ourselves. The concept doesn't exist. There isn't an oath of loyalty for players either, so the concept of being loyal like a soldier doesn't come into play (which doesn't go into the fact that soldiers sign a contract with the state as well as taking an oath, so there is a responsibility both ways to start).

If loyalty is only given, never demanded, then it never goes beyond a personal commitment, and betraying "loyalty" does nothing more than defining the personal character of the one who puts importance in personally "being loyal". Absent a public oath, you couldn't ever know if someone held themselves to that standard, and hence couldn't judge them by it. So it's definitely not worth mentioning in the case of the players.

And if your employer ever talks about "loyalty", it definitely means they're looking for you to give something of value without receiving it. That's the main place you're going to hear about loyalty in day to day life, and that's why loyalty is a dirty word.
I feel bad for you, that that's how you tend to run into the concept of loyalty in your life.

Others' lives aren't like that, brother.

Anyway, should our players have loyalty to the program? I think so. Forget about transfer portals and the current situation. Just as a general rule, if we are to pursue championships, the players and coaches have to commit to the success of something bigger than themselves. They have to be willing to sacrifice so that the team can improve.

And yes, it shows. You can tell. Loyalty often manifests as sacrifice. Which others can see.

I mean, imagine two players. One is a QB, and he's being considered for the Heisman trophy. He tells the reporter, "I don't care about that, winning the championship with my buddies would mean a lot more to me." That guy gets it. Then there's the guy who, though his team is in the playoffs and has a chance at a national title, decides to sit out to prepare himself for the draft. Clearly he doesn't have the same loyalty--to his teammates, to his program--as that first guy. His loyalty is to himself.

So should we look for loyalty in our lads? Absolutely.

Should that have included all the lads who left Tennessee through the portal this off-season? Meh. That's a much more complicated scenario, with lots of complex variables. I'm not going to fault any of them for the decisions they've made, because I don't know any of the details.

But yes, in general, we should expect loyalty from our lads, and our coaches, and our fans, and our boosters, and our university leaders.

Absolutely.
 
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#68

kckempf

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#68
I feel bad for you, that that's how you tend to run into the concept of loyalty in your life.

Others' lives aren't like that, brother.

Anyway, should our players have loyalty to the program? I think so. Forget about transfer portals and the current situation. Just as a general rule, if we are to pursue championships, the players and coaches have to commit to the success of something bigger than themselves. They have to be willing to sacrifice so that the team can improve.

I mean, imagine two players. One is a QB, and he's being considered for the Heisman trophy. He tells the reporter, "I don't care about that, winning the championship with my buddies would mean a lot more to me." That guy gets it. Then there's the guy who, though his team is in the playoffs and has a chance at a national title, decides to sit out to prepare himself for the draft. Clearly he doesn't have the same loyalty--to his teammates, to his program--as that first guy. His loyalty is to himself.

So should we look for loyalty in our lads? Absolutely.

Should that have included all the lads who left Tennessee through the portal this off-season? Meh. That's a much more complicated scenario, with lots of inputs. I'm not going to fault any of them for the decisions they've made, because I don't know any of the details.

But yes, in general, we should expect loyalty from our lads, and our coaches, and our fans, and our boosters, and our university leaders. Absolutely,.
I don't think we should approach any recruit thinking that we will get any loyalty from them. One reason is that it's impossible to know whether a player is truly loyal to a program or to a coach -- the coach largely is what pulls a player to a program and coaches move all the time with recruits following them. The other reason is that there's no way for a recruit to say anything that positively shows that they value loyalty. We look at that clip of Peyton Manning coming back for his senior year and say that it's because of loyalty to Tennessee, but he came back to play for his favorite coach and nearly (should have) win a Heisman. Do you take him at face value or do you consider what coming back did for him?

If you always go into the interaction considering what you can do for them, you're never going to be disappointed. The only way we get competitive players is by showing them that we are going to get them from where they are too where they want to be, and that's neither winning the Heisman trophy nor winning the national championship. It's playing in the NFL.

If you want only recruits who are loyal to the school, you'll get some very dedicated walk-ons but you won't get the people who will take you to the top. If all you have to offer is "you'll be loyal to me", you'll get only people who will gain value from their association to you, not the other way around. It's not a big revelation that if you treat people right, they'll be happy to work for you.
 
#69

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#69
I don't think we should approach any recruit thinking that we will get any loyalty from them. One reason is that it's impossible to know whether a player is truly loyal to a program or to a coach -- the coach largely is what pulls a player to a program and coaches move all the time with recruits following them. The other reason is that there's no way for a recruit to say anything that positively shows that they value loyalty. We look at that clip of Peyton Manning coming back for his senior year and say that it's because of loyalty to Tennessee, but he came back to play for his favorite coach and nearly (should have) win a Heisman. Do you take him at face value or do you consider what coming back did for him?

If you always go into the interaction considering what you can do for them, you're never going to be disappointed. The only way we get competitive players is by showing them that we are going to get them from where they are too where they want to be, and that's neither winning the Heisman trophy nor winning the national championship. It's playing in the NFL.

If you want only recruits who are loyal to the school, you'll get some very dedicated walk-ons but you won't get the people who will take you to the top. If all you have to offer is "you'll be loyal to me", you'll get only people who will gain value from their association to you, not the other way around. It's not a big revelation that if you treat people right, they'll be happy to work for you.
I hate to keep coming back to this, but man you live in a very selfish world. I'm sorry for you.

Loyalty is part of a program's culture. It varies from individual to individual, yes, but if the leadership values it, teaches it, instills it, the players will feel it, will commit to it, will live and die by it. It is absolutely tangible, and measurable, and teachable.

And when a program is infected with loyalty and commitment and selflessness, the strength of the team skyrockets. Anything becomes possible. Players play beyond themselves, coaches coach beyond themselves, the whole program rises to levels some might not have thought possible.

It starts with caring. I care for you. You learn to care for me, and your other brothers. We celebrate success together. We worry over failure together. We look for better ways, and smarter solutions, and quicker responses together. Before long, I'm just as invested in your P.R. in the weight room as I am in mine. I celebrate when you get named to the all-SEC first team just as much as I would if it were me. I love you like a brother, and am loyal to you, to a fault. To all of you. To the team. Devoted to our success.

That's what great coaches build. It's what great seniors reinforce. It's what great players buy into.

To be the best you have to be more than the fastest or strongest. Because your fastest and strongest is never going to be much different than that other guy on the other team. At the top end of the sport, there's a plateau, a parity in skill level. To go higher, to get beyond that plateau, you need teamwork. Commitment. Loyalty.

That's where we're going. Or at least I hope that's where we're going.

Your perspective would not get us there. Loyalty is powerful. Learn more about it.
 
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#70

Orange_Crush

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#70
Loyalty == a strong sense of support or allegiance, whatever the cause. It's ridiculous to pigeon-hole its meaning to be undeserved or blind allegiance and support.

That is all.
 
#71

kckempf

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#71
I hate to keep coming back to this, but man you live in a very selfish world. I'm sorry for you.

Loyalty is part of a program's culture. It varies from individual to individual, yes, but if the leadership values it, teaches it, instills it, the players will feel it, will commit to it, will live and die by it. It is absolutely tangible, and measurable, and teachable.

And when a program is infected with loyalty and commitment and selflessness, the strength of the team skyrockets. Anything becomes possible. Players play beyond themselves, coaches coach beyond themselves, the whole program rises to levels some might not have thought possible.

It starts with caring. I care for you. You learn to care for me, and your other brothers. We celebrate success together. We worry over failure together. We look for better ways, and smarter solutions, and quicker responses together. Before long, I'm just as invested in your P.R. in the weight room as I am in mine. I celebrate when you get named to the all-SEC first team just as much as I would if it were me. I love you like a brother, and am loyal to you, to a fault. To all of you. To the team. Devoted to our success.

That's what great coaches build. It's what great seniors reinforce. It's what great players buy into.

To be the best you have to be more than the fastest or strongest. Because your fastest and strongest is never going to be much different than that other guy on the other team. At the top end of the sport, there's a plateau, a parity in skill level. To go higher, to get beyond that plateau, you need teamwork. Commitment. Loyalty.

That's where we're going. Or at least I hope that's where we're going.

Your perspective would not get us there. Loyalty is powerful. Learn more about it.
If there is a sense of loyalty between players and each other, between coaches and each other, or to the concept of team in general, it comes from a sense that the individual gains from association to the team in one way or another. You help your teammate out and he helps you out. You put in the extra work so the coach puts in extra time to mentor you. You do everything on and off the field to succeed so your coaches send positive feedback to the scouts. All of those are transactional behaviors, though. They know to do this because these are the behaviors that lead to success. They could do the same for the next team with no sense of loyalty at all. Bill Belichik depends on it.

The model of loyalty to the school that the players can see is the relationship between the coach and the school. The school doesn’t hire the coach for a salary and have a handshake to agree on the coach staying put and the school not firing them. They write out the explicit terms of the relationship and attach a penalty to breaking the contract. It’s a transaction with a contract with obligations. The players themselves sign their own contracts, with a higher degree of obligation on the part of the player than on the part of the school. Once the school breaks that contract, the player’s decision isn’t up to loyalty, it’s up to finding the situation that is best for his life. If we’re any good at what we do, we can show that a player is going to get where they want to go here. If we can’t do that, we can’t complain when they leave us for someone who will do that for them.

If you’ve taught the player right they’re going to do the right thing no matter their relationship to someone else, because they’re doing it for something more important than loyalty. They’re doing it because it’s personally rewarding.
 
#72

ptcarter

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#72
All this talk of loyalty. We'd like to think it to the school, but the school is made of humans.

In the early 80's, I got hired onto the early wave of a company that ended up being one of the biggest employers in the state after 15 years. The early days were fun. Everyone working their butts off, global travel on a regular basis (exciting for a kid in his mid 20's) and lots of profit sharing.

As the market shifted, and margins declined- the flavor of the company shifted. Management was "hired in" from the outside that had no real connection to the early days. Some facets of the company were losing market share because of competition that didn't exist previously.

There was still loyalty to the company, but there was bloat, and over time, it became like musical chairs with layoffs. If you didn't have a seat when the music stopped, you were gone. This was a real lesson in loyalty to me - I felt loyal and proud of my low employee number, yet one bad transfer into the wrong area and my number came up.

Someone once said "You don't quit the company, you quit the boss". There is a lot of truth in that statement.

There has been a lot questioning of Jay Graham and Tee Martin's "loyalty" lately. I don't question it. I understand that whatever good warm fuzzy feelings they had as players were because of the people around them at that time. The Pruitt administration could have forever tainted that for them. Past loyalties don't always transfer, and I promise you this: YOU have no real knowledge of what Tee and Jay put up with regarding Pruitt. Landing at Bama could very well be a breath of fresh air for Jay. Any negative words towards UT were not about the past, but about the crap he was dealing with currently. JP is right- loyalty is earned- your management needs to also be your "champion" and willing to go bat for you, allow you the freedom to use your talents and be there to help you get back on track if you fail. That promotes loyalty.

As for those in the transfer portal... Let's assume they weren't leaving because money spigot was turned off.. They developed some sort of loyalty and bond with the coaches that recruited them. They were in the situation I found myself in (described above) when I realized the market had shifted, and changes were made that didn't meet with my approval, yet I was powerless to change anything.

I cut everyone slack, because the Pruitt experiment was a train wreck with tons of collateral damage. Hopefully CJH can earn the loyalty and respect of his players and that would go a long way towards getting good recruits down the road. He's got an uphill climb.
 

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