Another Question...

#576
#576
utkell65 said:
Most reasonable people will agree that we backed into the 07 game. But the real question is when was the last time that we actually won the SECCG?

We could make it to the SECCG every year, but if we can't win it, then what does it really matter?
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If that's your criteria, sure.

But let's hope we don't spend too many years never getting there. If you get there, you are in with a chance as 2007 demonstrated. Right now, when do you think we will be in the SECCG again?

You can never back into the SECCG. Never.
 
#577
#577
utgibbs said:
Where do you think the 2007 class ranks now? Can you give us a rundown of what happened to each?

I assume that's the post you are referring to. I held back a response because I have a feeling the answers will simply support my case all the more.
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Nope.

volnation.com/forum/tennessee-vols-football/103929-another-question-28.html#post3729111

Plus, I don't need to. As I've said, Fulmer's average class rank since Rivals started in 2002 is 14th. Worse than Kiffin, worse than Dooley, etc. As I've said, he was outside the top ten more often than in it.
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#579
#579
utgibbs said:
If that's your criteria, sure.
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It should be...we have won multiple SEC titles almost every decade until this past one, when we won zero under Fulmer. But we should settle for nonexistant SEC East "championships" because Tennessee can't do any better, right?

You can never back into the SECCG. Never.
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Wrong again...surprise, surprise
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#580
#580
utgibbs said:
If that's your criteria, sure.

But let's hope we don't spend too many years never getting there. If you get there, you are in with a chance as 2007 demonstrated. Right now, when do you think we will be in the SECCG again?

You can never back into the SECCG. Never.
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It should be the criteria. We don't play the games to finish second. It's an achievement to get to the SECCG, but if you can't bring it home, then you're still second best.

If, and I'm saying IF this staff works out, we could be back to the SECCG by 2013.

How many times have you seen a team lose to it's two biggest rivals and lose badly at that and still make it to the conference championship game?
 
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#581
#581
I would bet my life that we would not reach the 2010 SEC championship game with Fulmer.
 
#582
#582
zjcvols said:
I would bet my life that we would not reach the 2010 SEC championship game with Fulmer.
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But the law of averages is bulletproof...LSU and Georgia wouldn't even try to beat us when facing insurmountable obstacles like that...
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#583
#583
VKAman said:
Nope.

volnation.com/forum/tennessee-vols-football/103929-another-question-28.html#post3729111

Plus, I don't need to. As I've said, Fulmer's average class rank since Rivals started in 2002 is 14th. Worse than Kiffin, worse than Dooley, etc. As I've said, he was outside the top ten more often than in it.
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Hurm? So ignore most of his career?

GSM.
 
#585
#585
utgibbs said:
Spurrier is an elite coach.

However the real story is Spurrier at USCe. At the end of the day, I will not convince the haters, but 2005 and 2008 were outliers which no amount of coaching could solve: two NFL QBs losing the plot completely. Even then he almost couldn't pull it off in 2005.

So, I know Fulmer is only 0.500 against Spurrier at USC, but he would have consistently taken him behind the woodshed had he remained. It was the doubled-headed deer in the headlights which cost us.
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That takes the cake. I've seen a LOT of ignorance from this guy over the last few months, but this is instant gold.
 
#586
#586
utgibbs said:
You have completely supported my premise!

Ainge was definitely the man at the beginning of the season. He couldn't do the job; despite the fact he could do the job the year before.

Both on the field and off Clausen's numbers are far better than Ainge's (in 2005).

In fact, the poor coaching decision is probably not giving the rock to Rick Clausen full time. It's because the decision for Ainge had been made, instead of letting the practice field determine the starting position that we had rotating QBs.

It validates my points completely.

1. Namely, there was no "good coaching" remedy. Ainge was the right choice / Ainge was the wrong choice. It was a perfect storm with no real winning answer.

2. The fact that you remember a QB performance against KY at the end of the year also supports my thesis: the boy needed time - he had the support, he just had to deliver like everyone knew he could. It also puts to pasture the notion that Cut saved all. But I'm not here to suggest Cut isn't a great coach. He is.
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Ainge should have never been removed. Ever. There's a reason he's in the NFL and Clausen never sniffed the CFL. Ainge was the better player from day 1. Not picking him from the first day of the 2005 offseason was a moronic move. Picking the most incompetent Clausen (in a blatant attempt to get his little brother, which Fulmer failed at miserably, btw) was nothing but detrimental to our team's chemistry, as well as any possible gelling of the offense. You obviously can't understand that it was 100% because of an inherent coaching flaw.

And as I'm serving for the match, here, tell me why the 3rd string QB from 2004 (who couldn't beat out 2 freshmen) should be the starter over a guy who didn't finish the previous season, of which he was doing very well, because of injury.
 
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#587
#587
crusse10 said:
Ainge should have never been removed. Ever. There's a reason he's in the NFL and Clausen never sniffed the CFL. Ainge was the better player from day 1. Not picking him from the first day of the 2005 offseason was a moronic move. Picking the most incompetent Clausen (in a blatant attempt to get his little brother, which Fulmer failed at miserably, btw) was nothing but detrimental to our team's chemistry, as well as any possible gelling of the offense. You obviously can't understand that it was 100% because of an inherent coaching flaw.

And as I'm serving for the match, here, tell me why the 3rd string QB from 2004 (who couldn't beat out 2 freshmen) should be the starter over a guy who didn't finish the previous season, of which he was doing very well, because of injury.
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And yet Clausen beat him on the field and in practice in 2005.

I think that's the Rafa Nadal forehand winner to break you for the GS and M.

Look, the point about chemistry has some merit. From what I remember, the team was behind Clausen, but the coaches weren't. It was a perfect storm nightmare, just as I said; coaching could do almost nothing.

Perhaps things would have worked out better if we had just stuck with Ainge. But the fact of the matter is, Rick played in nine game, Ainge in eight, and frankly, Rick had far superior numbers. What the heck can you do? It was absolutely a perfect storm.

"We came back the next year and started trying to teach him everything. He got a little bogged down with that, he got bogged down splitting time with Rick. The team was a little divided at who they wanted at quarterback. All those things made it tough for both he and Rick." --- Randy Sanders.

I hadn't read that quote before, but it backs up exactly what I said: a future NFL QB couldn't handle the responsibilities (i.e. playbook and competition) of the SEC QB role, and he needed time.
 
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#588
#588
crusse10 said:
Ainge should have never been removed. Ever. There's a reason he's in the NFL and Clausen never sniffed the CFL. Ainge was the better player from day 1. Not picking him from the first day of the 2005 offseason was a moronic move. Picking the most incompetent Clausen (in a blatant attempt to get his little brother, which Fulmer failed at miserably, btw) was nothing but detrimental to our team's chemistry, as well as any possible gelling of the offense. You obviously can't understand that it was 100% because of an inherent coaching flaw.

And as I'm serving for the match, here, tell me why the 3rd string QB from 2004 (who couldn't beat out 2 freshmen) should be the starter over a guy who didn't finish the previous season, of which he was doing very well, because of injury.
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I can see your points here, but the problem is in fall camp of 05, Clausen outperformed Ainge in nearly every practice. I watched several of them and every scrimmage.

Fulmer and Sanders very much wanted to hand the job to Ainge and be done with it, but Clausen simply was better than him most every day in camp. There was no way to justify keeping him off the field in favor of Ainge, who, despite his great freshman year, had a bad fall practice. There wasn't a whole lot he did early on in the year that gave you a ton of confidence in him either.

A two QB system almost never works, but neither guy played well enough in that season or leading up to that season to lay claim to the job. It was a giant cluster**** and everyone knew it. But there was nothing they could do about it.

Ainge did fairly well early against UAB, but then couldn't hit water throwing out of a boat in Gainesville. Then there was the debacle in the 1st half at LSU. They had no choice but to play Clausen.
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#589
#589
DeerPark12 said:
I can see your points here, but the problem is in fall camp of 05, Clausen outperformed Ainge in nearly every practice. I watched several of them and every scrimmage.

Fulmer and Sanders very much wanted to hand the job to Ainge and be done with it, but Clausen simply was better than him most every day in camp. There was no way to justify keeping him off the field in favor of Ainge, who, despite his great freshman year, had a bad fall practice. There wasn't a whole lot he did early on in the year that gave you a ton of confidence in him either.

A two QB system almost never works, but neither guy played well enough in that season or leading up to that season to lay claim to the job. It was a giant cluster**** and everyone knew it. But there was nothing they could do about it.

Ainge did fairly well early against UAB, but then couldn't hit water throwing out of a boat in Gainesville. Then there was the debacle in the 1st half at LSU. They had no choice but to play Clausen.
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Great points. It's exactly how I remember it playing out.

It was a cluster. It's a no-win situation. Either you give it to the guy with the tools who isn't getting it done in practice or you give it to the 5th year senior who won your two biggest games recently. Ainge couldn't handle the extra responsibility of Year Two straight away, and just needed time. We saw the same thing with JC this year; suddenly, MAGIC, in the last two minutes of Auburn, the game finally slowed down for him.

2005 really, really, really sucked. The 2005 defense was the best since 1998. It was a shame and tragic.
 
#590
#590
For whatever reason, Ainge couldn't handle the threat of competition in 05. I think he wasn't completely well from the shoulder injury but wanted to come back and reclaim his spot.He was fine in drills until they became competitions.
The receivers in 05 didn't do either QB many favors. When you have a defense like that and a 1,000 yard back in Foster and a 500 yd back in Riggs, there's no reason the team shouldn't have been better. But neither QB could get on the same page at the receivers. No doubt Ainge was by far the better talent, but Rick was who the team had confidence in, for better or worse.
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#591
#591
Wow. Some old timers must think we are heading back to the Battle era.

TN will be a top 20 team with regularity by 2013. Our problem is that we are in a conference with 6-7 other top 20 teams every year. If a playoff ever comes to College Football the SEC would probably be even more dominant in NC than it has been lately. There is not a close second in terms of football conference strength.

Last year, Florida and Alabama would have been tough outs for anyone else in the country in a playoff. One thing that I think people do not realize when a 2nd or 3rd place team from the SEC sucks it up after they fall out of the NC hunt is how demotivating it is to play a team when you know you cant get the prize you want.

Our team is top 10 in facilities and fan support and finances and we are also able to point to lots of NFL stars. If Eric Berry flames out and Haynesworth moves to his boat and Peyton retires and does not come help TN, then you can start to talk about TN sliding down to being a top 40 team and no better.

This is not Clemson...

Also and this is somewhat tangential, Downtown Knoxville is experiencing a resurgence somewhat like what Chattanooga went through. In this downturn you have projects like Maplehurst and new downtown groceries and Market Square revitalization etc. Knoxville right off the UT campus is becoming a better and better place to live every year. UT as a school is getting prettier, parking spaces are becoming less like a winning lottery ticket etc. There are lots of excellent things to commend it.
 
#592
#592
DeerPark12 said:
I can see your points here, but the problem is in fall camp of 05, Clausen outperformed Ainge in nearly every practice. I watched several of them and every scrimmage.

Fulmer and Sanders very much wanted to hand the job to Ainge and be done with it, but Clausen simply was better than him most every day in camp. There was no way to justify keeping him off the field in favor of Ainge, who, despite his great freshman year, had a bad fall practice. There wasn't a whole lot he did early on in the year that gave you a ton of confidence in him either.

A two QB system almost never works, but neither guy played well enough in that season or leading up to that season to lay claim to the job. It was a giant cluster**** and everyone knew it. But there was nothing they could do about it.

Ainge did fairly well early against UAB, but then couldn't hit water throwing out of a boat in Gainesville. Then there was the debacle in the 1st half at LSU. They had no choice but to play Clausen.
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How many games that Clausen started did he finish?
 
#594
#594
Game 1: UAB. Win. Ainge started, Clausen ended.
Game 2: Florida. Lost. Clausen started, Ainge ended.
Game 3: LSU. Win. Ainge started, Clausen ended.
Game 4: Ole Miss. Win. Clausen played all.
Game 5: Georgia. Loss. Clausen played all.
Game 6: Alabama. Loss. Clausen played majority of game.
Game 7: South Carolina. Loss. Clausen started, ended.
Game 8: Notre Dame. Loss. Ainge played all.
Game 9: Memphis. Win. Clausen played majority of game.
Game 10: Vanderbilt. Loss. Clausen played majority of game.
Game 11: Kentucky. Win. Ainge played all.

There was absolutely no consistency. None.
You say they tried to give Ainge the reins, but they let Clausen start and end 4 consecutive games, even though he went 1-3 during that stretch.
Face it, this was a terrible coaching job. In 11 games, you don't change the starter 6 times and hope to win.

Matter of fact, isn't it odd that we changed starters 6 times and lost 6 games...huh...coincidence?

As a starter, Clausen went 2-5. Ainge went 3-1.
 
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#596
#596
crusse10 said:
Game 1: UAB. Win. Ainge started, Clausen ended.
Game 2: Florida. Lost. Clausen started, Ainge ended.
Game 3: LSU. Win. Ainge started, Clausen ended.
Game 4: Ole Miss. Win. Clausen played all.
Game 5: Georgia. Loss. Clausen played all.
Game 6: Alabama. Loss. Clausen played majority of game.
Game 7: South Carolina. Loss. Clausen started, ended.
Game 8: Notre Dame. Loss. Ainge played all.
Game 9: Memphis. Win. Clausen played majority of game.
Game 10: Vanderbilt. Loss. Clausen played majority of game.
Game 11: Kentucky. Win. Ainge played all.

There was absolutely no consistency. None.
You say they tried to give Ainge the reins, but they let Clausen start and end 4 consecutive games, even though he went 1-3 during that stretch.
Face it, this was a terrible coaching job. In 11 games, you don't change the starter 6 times and hope to win.

Matter of fact, isn't it odd that we changed starters 6 times and lost 6 games...huh...coincidence?

As a starter, Clausen went 2-5. Ainge went 3-1.
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Agree completely. I don't think I've been anymore frustrated than watching that fiasco. I just hope that we don't get into that kind of situation again this year.

As much as I would like to see Bray have some time to bulk up, I think he should go ahead and start. Simms just isn't the answer for this team.
 
#597
#597
utkell65 said:
Agree completely. I don't think I've been anymore frustrated than watching that fiasco. I just hope that we don't get into that kind of situation again this year.

As much as I would like to see Bray have some time to bulk up, I think he should go ahead and start. Simms just isn't the answer for this team.
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hope the coaching situatiion doesn't mimick that
 
#598
#598
LMAO that Fulmer would have UT winning the SEC this year.

look, when Fulmer was pushed out it was made under the assumption that the program would go through some growing pains. that's what happens when you have to overhaul the entire program. we had deep-seeded problems that are now under construction, but are well on their way to repair.

I'd say top 25 program in 2-3 years is definitely dooable, but if it takes 4-5 years(as long as their aren't regressions) Dooley will have that kind of slack. the AD knows there were major internal problems, and that Rome wasn't built in a day.

This is an elite program that will be successful with stability and ingenuity, in which I believe Dooley can provide.
 
#600
#600
Volfan8282 said:
That takes the cake. I've seen a LOT of ignorance from this guy over the last few months, but this is instant gold.
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His world of could haves and would haves has to be akin to ignorance is bliss.

Boss: Did you get your task finished?
utgibs: Well if I did, it would have been done well.

Wife/Gf: What is the problem?
utgibbs: If we would have tried this last night, I would have been great.
 
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