Andy Staples from SI on CBJ Hot Seat or not!

#26
#26
golf437 said:
No He has at least two more years or more.
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Nah.

Will depend on whether the team plays sharp or not and a combination of how many losses/how bad the losses were/who they lost to.

The 2017 team isn't poised to lose too many of its main contributors (unless the team plays out of their minds, wins way more games than we're all expecting, and some jump to the NFL early). So I'm inclined to agree with Staples about Butch being safe as long as the team looks competitive throughout 2017 and is in the hunt for the east.


But another implosion down the stretch like 2016 could be enough for Currie to decide to get his own guy. Especially if Currie feels like Butch has lost the team at any point. Might see Butch make a lateral or downward jump if that were to happen too.
 
#27
#27
05_never_again said:
I wouldn't be so sure about that. I think an 8-4 season (even if the losses are to Georgia, Florida, Alabama, and LSU) doesn't necessarily guarantee him another year.

Especially if any of the losses are blowouts or if he loses to a team other than the 4 mentioned above.
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No.
 
#29
#29
05_never_again said:
Care to elaborate?
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not gonna speak for him, but i agree with him. it's a transition year on the field, and on the sidelines, and administratively. for all intents and purposes, i think there are a lot of ways you can look at 17 as "year 1, part 2".

Currie officially started his job a week ago. 9 months from now, if we're sitting at 8-4/7-5 going to another bowl, with what looks like should be a pretty good team for 18, it's going to be difficult, or at least risky, for an AD with 9 months under his belt to say "i've seen enough, you gotta go". especially with the new staff, and the returning players, and potentially one of the richest in state recruiting cycles in recent memory....

and i honestly think we will be fairly competitive. the only game that i think will be fairly ugly is Bama.

not saying it won't happen, i just think it would take something that would have to make it where there was no other option but to fire him. some scandal, or he says something so stupid, or goes 5-7 or worse.

i believe, that if they think they have the option to see what 2018 looks like, with expectations ratcheted back up again, like they were for 2016, they'll take it, and see what happens. then evaluate, and make a decision.

plus, financially, are they going to want to pay the buyout, potentially all the assistant buyouts, and then potentially having to pick up the tab on a buyout and contract for a new coach and staff they think they can poach from another p5 school?

the only thing i can't comment on is what kind of relationship Currie will have, or has, with Butch. it's well documented the issues Currie had with coaches at KSU. it's well documented his relationships with coaches here. so i'll call that the wild card in all this.


at the end of the day i also think Butch has a lot more support behind closed doors than we all think. and if Haslam's happy, everybody's happy.
 
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#30
#30
05_never_again said:
Care to elaborate?
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When you look at all the factors that are likely to effect outcomes going into this season, 8-4 would be a very respectable result. It wouldn't be in line with the perennial 10-win type of program we all want and expect. But considering the SOS, the high number of key players we are replacing (most importantly at QB) and the lack of "can't miss" prospective replacement coaches for our new AD to stick his neck out and hire, 8-4 will be enough for Butch to keep his job. I think even 7-5 will get him another year. But the heat will most definitely be on to challenge for the SEC in 2018.
 
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#31
#31
UneducatedGuess said:
Summary:

I'm gonna write a story for Vol fans
Because they click everything
And clicks make me look good

Conclusion
Butch wins and he is in
If he loses he may be out
But that depends
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Sounds as though his assessment is about as deep as the gene pool in Eastern Kentucky.

I just went up there recently so I'd know.
 
#32
#32
Based on this last recruiting class, I just hope CBJ isn't a "one-hit-wonder" with the whole "earlying playing time" theme which typically plays out after 2 years. These are ALL his players and thereby should FIT HIS SYSTEM. I think 8-4 gets him another year - but if he loses to SC or Vandy - no contract extensions/raises. This then signals to every SEC recruiter that "...there are problems at UT". This then hurts recruiting. It's truly a vicious/virtuous cycle depending. It seems UT football is at a tipping point - one way or the other.
 
#33
#33
Simply, and no matter how much we dislike it, dudes not going any where for at least to seasons, regardless of record. Simple and pure economics of his contract is why!
 
#35
#35
IknoxvolsI said:
Simply, and no matter how much we dislike it, dudes not going any where for at least to seasons, regardless of record. Simple and pure economics of his contract is why!
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Y'know, I was all set to disagree with this (and I'm still not fully convinced of this if the 2017 team were to really implode), but then I looked up the math of it.


Butch's buyout is $2 million now. Plus, if terminated, UT would own him an additional $2 million per each remaining year on his contract (which goes through the 2020 season).

So firing him after the 2017 season would cost $8 million total. After 2018 would cost $6 million. That is pretty damn steep (though it's becoming somewhat standard for SEC schools).


The only thing I was unclear on is whether or not the $2 million/year part would/could be offset some if he gets another P5 HC job. If that's the case, then firing becomes pretty damn cheap, all things considered.
 
#36
#36
Darth_Shiveman said:
Y'know, I was all set to disagree with this (and I'm still not fully convinced of this if the 2017 team were to really implode), but then I looked up the math of it.


Butch's buyout is $2 million now. Plus, if terminated, UT would own him an additional $2 million per each remaining year on his contract (which goes through the 2020 season).

So firing him after the 2017 season would cost $8 million total. After 2018 would cost $6 million. That is pretty damn steep (though it's becoming somewhat standard for SEC schools).


The only thing I was unclear on is whether or not the $2 million/year part would/could be offset some if he gets another P5 HC job. If that's the case, then firing becomes pretty damn cheap, all things considered.
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But who else would hire him?
 
#39
#39
IknoxvolsI said:
But who else would hire him?
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If we're talking about him making a lateral move away from UT, I'm not sure how many teams would give the cash for him.


If we're talking about him getting a job after a hypothetical firing, then I don't think he'd have too much trouble getting a P5 job somewhere unless the 2017 team absolutely implodes for the following reasons:

1. Butch has shown he's good at rebuilding a team. From talent level to getting APR in line, he'll have left UT in a MUCH better place than when he arrived if he was fired. He can take a team and make them competitive (though he hasn't shown he can take them to next level yet).

2. He's run always ran clean programs. No worries about him taking the Hugh freeze route to rebuilding a program.

3. There are always lower tier P5 teams looking for a coach who can come in and make them competitive. Sure, he wouldn't find another $4million/year job coming off of a firing, but there are a lot of P5 teams in the dumps every December/January looking to make a change. Most have to settle for up and comers with question marks. Butch would be more of a known quantity for a basement dweller P5 team looking for someone who can make them competitive.
 
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#40
#40
Darth_Shiveman said:
Y'know, I was all set to disagree with this (and I'm still not fully convinced of this if the 2017 team were to really implode), but then I looked up the math of it.


Butch's buyout is $2 million now. Plus, if terminated, UT would own him an additional $2 million per each remaining year on his contract (which goes through the 2020 season).

So firing him after the 2017 season would cost $8 million total. After 2018 would cost $6 million. That is pretty damn steep (though it's becoming somewhat standard for SEC schools).


The only thing I was unclear on is whether or not the $2 million/year part would/could be offset some if he gets another P5 HC job. If that's the case, then firing becomes pretty damn cheap, all things considered.
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The buyout will be mitigated by earnings during the remainder of the contract term. I'm sure UT included verbiage qualifying this to include any and all income received for any suitable employment, including but not limited to, any football coaching position (in any conference, at any level). The contract will require him to make best efforts to mitigate damages by finding suitable employment as soon as possible.

Should he be fired during the contract term, Butch probably would want to coach somewhere else right away, so theoretically, UT's obligation for liquidated damages could be very reasonable.
 
#42
#42
LA Vol said:
The buyout will be mitigated by earnings during the remainder of the contract term. I'm sure UT included verbiage qualifying this to include any and all income received for any suitable employment, including but not limited to, any football coaching position (in any conference, at any level). The contract will require him to make best efforts to mitigate damages by finding suitable employment as soon as possible.

Should he be fired during the contract term, Butch probably would want to coach somewhere else right away, so theoretically, UT's obligation for liquidated damages could be very reasonable.
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So I looked up his contract and it appears you're right. His contract has offsetting language for any "comparable employment" he finds after being terminated. It defines "comparable employment" as any assistant or head coaching job for a university or NFL team.


So basically we'd owe him a one time payment of $2 million for the buyout plus $2 million/year through 2020 minus whatever he's getting paid at his next job.

So theoretically if we're fired and hired at a bottom feeder P5 school or G5 school as a HC for 1.5 million per year, we'd owe him $3.5 million total. If he got a position coach job and made 400K/ year, we'd owe him 6.8 million total.

Source on the contract:
https://hkm.com/football/contracts/butch-jones/


So that would make firing him considerably cheaper and much more of an option than I previously thought.
 
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#43
#43
Darth_Shiveman said:
So I looked up his contract and it appears you're right. His contract has offsetting language for any "comparable employment" he finds after being terminated. It defines "comparable employment" as any assistant or head coaching job for a university or NFL team.


So basically we'd owe him a one time payment of $2 million for the buyout plus $2 million/year through 2020 minus whatever he's getting paid at his next job.

So theoretically if we're fired and hired at a bottom feeder P5 school or G5 school as a HC for 1.5 million per year, we'd owe him $3.5 million total. If he got a position coach job and made 400K/ year, we'd owe him 6.8 million total.

Source on the contract:
https://hkm.com/football/contracts/butch-jones/


So that would make firing him considerably cheaper and much more of an option than I previously thought.
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His agent probably negotiated that "comparable employment" to include more favorable terms. Standard verbiage is usually broader to protect the university. Butch is ambitious, so I think he would move on to another HC or NFL position, and UT would owe less than the $8M. I hope UT has a good season and this is all moot, but IDT the buyout would be the deciding factor if Currie decides a coaching search is warranted.
 
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#44
#44
LA Vol said:
His agent probably negotiated that "comparable employment" to include more favorable terms. Standard verbiage is usually broader to protect the university. Butch is ambitious, so I think he would move on to another HC or NFL position, and UT would owe less than the $8M. I hope UT has a good season and this is all moot, but IDT the buyout would be the deciding factor if Currie decides a coaching search is warranted.
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You can read the contract on the site I linked. Page 3-4 section 3.1.4


It defines comparable employment as an assistant or head coaching job at a college or university, professional assistant or head coaching job, or athletics administrator at a college or university.


So pretty much anything he does besides taking a year or two off would mean chunks of the $2 million get offset.
 
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