And the lamest argument of all-time is....

#53
#53
ptclaus98 said:
Les Miles is 56-15, with a national championship at LSU.




Coaching matters alright.
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Is Les Miles the only coach on that staff??? Incredible! I thought they had guys like Chief on that team who actually coached specific positions.....didn't realize Les Miles did it all, no wonder his brain is fried when it comes to game management :blink:
 
#56
#56
It's funny how several on here turned my original post into a 'stars dont matter, who needs 4 and 5 star guys!' thread....

My point of the original post than the list of 2 and 3 star guys that included Mark Ingram and McElroy from the defending national champs team is you can't say our recruiting class sucks right now because no one here has any idea how they fit into our future schemes and gameplan....they might be the perfect fit for what our coaches run and could be the next 'how were they 3 stars!?!?' guys......also, take a look at who we still have on our board and have a legit chance of landing, there are a significant number of 4 and 5 star guys that would top this class off perfectly. Obviously Dooley has the ability to pull it off, he already showed it during damage control when he pulled in Justin Huner, Da'Rick Rogers, and held onto many others. Oh and James Stone wasn't even going to come to UT, he was headed to Bama until Kiffin left and Dooley connected with him right away.
 
#57
#57
utmba93 said:
Probably the best case for talent that I have read. :hi:

Add Larry Coker, and this thread is dead.
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Larry Coker inhereited guys that had been coached by Butch Davis, when that group of guys moved on and it was left up to Coker to continue the success, he flopped miserably, see the top 10 classes from the last several years posted earlier and see their record with that group of talent and it plays right into the fact coaching matters.
 
#58
#58
andy112382 said:
It's funny how several on here turned my original post into a 'stars dont matter, who needs 4 and 5 star guys!' thread....

My point of the original post than the list of 2 and 3 star guys that included Mark Ingram and McElroy from the defending national champs team is you can't say our recruiting class sucks right now because no one here has any idea how they fit into our future schemes and gameplan....they might be the perfect fit for what our coaches run and could be the next 'how were they 3 stars!?!?' guys......also, take a look at who we still have on our board and have a legit chance of landing, there are a significant number of 4 and 5 star guys that would top this class off perfectly. Obviously Dooley has the ability to pull it off, he already showed it during damage control when he pulled in Justin Huner, Da'Rick Rogers, and held onto many others. Oh and James Stone wasn't even going to come to UT, he was headed to Bama until Kiffin left and Dooley connected with him right away.
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How the class is topped off is the real key, imo. It currently lacks the 'topping.'
 
#59
#59
andy112382 said:
Larry Coker inhereited guys that had been coached by Butch Davis, when that group of guys moved on and it was left up to Coker to continue the success, he flopped miserably, see the top 10 classes from the last several years posted earlier and see their record with that group of talent and it plays right into the fact coaching matters.
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Fair enough. The question is more about how much coaching matters versus talent (e.g. having either a dearth of talent or a plethora of talent).

Championships can be won with marginal coaching and a plethora of talent, but it's difficult to make up for a dearth of talent.

That's why recruiting has its own forum. Everything at VN happens for a reason. :hi:
 
#60
#60
utmba93 said:
How the class is topped off is the real key, imo. It currently lacks the 'topping.'
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It'll come: Scout.com: Football Recruiting

There are several on that list that have specifically said we are a legit chance to land them according to the reporters who spoke with them.

Thing is, many of these 'top notch' guys like to use the spotlight after the regular college football season is over and make their announcement, so I wouldn't expect to see many of these top 10 guys from each position make many announcements if they haven't already.
 
#61
#61
utmba93 said:
Fair enough. The question is more about how much coaching matters versus talent (e.g. having either a dearth of talent or a plethora of talent).

Championships can be won with marginal coaching and a plethora of talent, but it's difficult to make up for a dearth of talent.

That's why recruiting has its own forum. Everything at VN happens for a reason. :hi:
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Haha, nicely put.
 
#62
#62
andy112382 said:
It'll come: Scout.com: Football Recruiting

There are several on that list that have specifically said we are a legit chance to land them according to the reporters who spoke with them.

Thing is, many of these 'top notch' guys like to use the spotlight after the regular college football season is over and make their announcement, so I wouldn't expect to see many of these top 10 guys from each position make many announcements if they haven't already.
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If it does come, it will relieve a lot of the off-season pressure on Dooley, imo.

I hope it happens. The program certainly needs it.
 
#63
#63
andy112382 said:
The recruiting star count argument.

It makes me laugh everytime I see someone pull that out in a debate about football...'oh we need coaches because their recruits aren't enough stars for me!'

I could go all day with examples of why this argument, at best, has a stump of a leg MAYBE at best to stand on, but you could make a nice roster or two of well documented lowly ranked recruits that are quite good. You can also look at teams like Boise St who never ranks over 70th best class but still looks pretty darn good against 'higher recruiting' teams or heck, South Carolina who knocked off Bama, a team full of 5-star recruits. Or if you went just star count, shouldnt the Florida/Bama game be a deadlock since both have plenty of 4 and 5 star guys?

Anywho, if you would actually follow recruiting closely other than glance at the list, you would know several of the three star guys are quite good (Worley tops that, saw him in person two weeks ago and I can certainly confirm this) and we are in the running for several top guys like the #2 WR in the nation on scout.com, on his short list per the insiders at scout.com.......

Dooley clearly stated how he was going to build this, team back starting with getting guys who are tough, gritty players who will bleed orange, may not be the biggest and fastest in the sport but cant be beat when it comes to heart and toughness (which can win games) then finish the class with those playmakers, game changing players that fully compliment the supporting cast doing the 'dirty work' grinding it out......look at his class and who is left on our board and his recruiting matches this perfectly.

(Just to note, a close second place for dumbest argument I have seen is the 'fire Dooley' posts, not as many but incredibly idiotic, too stupid to even respond to....4 coaches in 4 years, seriously want that?)
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You got that right, who i the hell would FL or AL's recruits those guys suck.
 
#64
#64
andy112382 said:
The recruiting star count argument.

It makes me laugh everytime I see someone pull that out in a debate about football...'oh we need coaches because their recruits aren't enough stars for me!'

I could go all day with examples of why this argument, at best, has a stump of a leg MAYBE at best to stand on, but you could make a nice roster or two of well documented lowly ranked recruits that are quite good. You can also look at teams like Boise St who never ranks over 70th best class but still looks pretty darn good against 'higher recruiting' teams or heck, South Carolina who knocked off Bama, a team full of 5-star recruits. Or if you went just star count, shouldnt the Florida/Bama game be a deadlock since both have plenty of 4 and 5 star guys?

Anywho, if you would actually follow recruiting closely other than glance at the list, you would know several of the three star guys are quite good (Worley tops that, saw him in person two weeks ago and I can certainly confirm this) and we are in the running for several top guys like the #2 WR in the nation on scout.com, on his short list per the insiders at scout.com.......

Dooley clearly stated how he was going to build this, team back starting with getting guys who are tough, gritty players who will bleed orange, may not be the biggest and fastest in the sport but cant be beat when it comes to heart and toughness (which can win games) then finish the class with those playmakers, game changing players that fully compliment the supporting cast doing the 'dirty work' grinding it out......look at his class and who is left on our board and his recruiting matches this perfectly.

(Just to note, a close second place for dumbest argument I have seen is the 'fire Dooley' posts, not as many but incredibly idiotic, too stupid to even respond to....4 coaches in 4 years, seriously want that?)
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The fact that he is only having one official visit during the season makes more sense to me now. If he is planning on finishing off the class with the big fish, then he will want to spend a lot of one on one time with them, more so than he would have during the season.
 
#66
#66
andy112382 said:
It does when you haven't been in the top 25 for a while! Who here wouldn't kill to see our Vols back in the top 25?!?
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That's not the point. If we want to be top 25, we may be okay with a class ranked 30th. If we want to win the SEC, we better be much, much higher.
 
#67
#67
lylsmorr said:
Put them in the Pac-10, Big 10, Big 12, or SEC and see if they are ranked.
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Right...because Alabama handled a weak conference team called Utah a while back. I see your point...:good!: I'm simply stating that because a talent scout decides to label a player with a star doesn't mean they can't be coached up. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Boise beat Oregon last year and Oregon St. this year...both Pac-10 right?
 
#68
#68
OrangeHeart said:
Right...because Alabama handled a weak conference team called Utah a while back. I see your point...:good!: I'm simply stating that because a talent scout decides to label a player with a star doesn't mean they can't be coached up. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Boise beat Oregon last year and Oregon St. this year...both Pac-10 right?
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Not to defend Bama, but that game had to be a total letdown for them. It's hard to imagine them getting pumped for that game after thinking they had a shot at the national title for so long.

To be honest, I feel like TCU may have felt the same way against Boise.
 
#69
#69
cotton said:
I'm not sure I understand how those classes he "evaluated" at LSU that were ranked so highly by the recruiting services are being used as evidence to invalidate the rankings by recruiting services.
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Let me help you. When Saban and company began at LSU they were up and coming. So, the Saban name didn't mean much. Check out the recruits in 2002 for LSU, which are riddled with 2 and 3 stars. They win the 03 championship on evaluated talent not on stars. We have folks on here falling to pieces over a commitment list with no one under 3 stars.:thumbsup:
 
#70
#70
tvolsfan said:
That's not the point. If we want to be top 25, we may be okay with a class ranked 30th. If we want to win the SEC, we better be much, much higher.
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We've got a roster to rebuild first and foremost, next season aim for top 25 finish and top 3 in the SEC east and win the bowl and that would leave us sitting pretty for 2012 with a veteran team and the roster much more stable and loaded with experience thanks to the cr*p we are having to go through right now.
 
#71
#71
OrangeHeart said:
Right...because Alabama handled a weak conference team called Utah a while back. I see your point...:good!: I'm simply stating that because a talent scout decides to label a player with a star doesn't mean they can't be coached up. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Boise beat Oregon last year and Oregon St. this year...both Pac-10 right?
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I would have liked to have seen a matchup between Boise and Oregon last year around Week 7, but yes Boise beat Oregon last year and beat a now unranked Oregon State team. I wouldn't mind seeing them against Oregon this year, USC, Stanford, etc.
 
#72
#72
The top 5 programs in the last ten years (Ohio St., Florida, Oklahoma, Texas, & USC) all had an average of a top 8 class, except for Ohio State, who had about a 11.3 or something. I did some research. Stars matter some, but there is no doubt offer lists matter a lot more.
 
#73
#73
lylsmorr said:
I would have liked to have seen a matchup between Boise and Oregon last year around Week 7, but yes Boise beat Oregon last year and beat a now unranked Oregon State team. I wouldn't mind seeing them against Oregon this year, USC, Stanford, etc.
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I'll say it right now: Oregon would beat Boise St. by 20, and Stanford would win by two touchdowns.
 
#74
#74
zjcvols said:
Stars matter some, but there is no doubt offer lists matter a lot more.
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Thank you, I'd been trying to put that same thought into words. +1.

I'd like to see a system where stars are replaced by an averaging of the top 5 ranked teams' AP ranking with an offer on the table. It could work, and would be pretty darned interesting.
 
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