AJ Johnson/Michael Williams Case (merged)

#801
#801
He said she said case imo. He could be hung like a horse which may explain the results of the rape kit. Tearing and blood etc.

Hurts for her and or hurts for knowing her friends or family she is banging a black football player. Assuming she is white. jag
 
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#802
#802
daj2576 said:
The very bedrock of our criminal justice system is the arch ideal that the defendant is innocent until PROVEN guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. That means that if not proven guilty, one should be viewed as innocent.

There is no onus on the defendant to prove innocence, only on the government to prove guilt.
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Sure, but the presumption of innocence cuts both ways in the case of a he said/she said rape allegation . Unless her allegations are provably false beyond a reasonable doubt, an accuser can't be punished just because her story wasn't provably true beyond a reasonable doubt. Here's the spectrum we're talking about:

Rape didn't happened - - - - - - - - - Rape happened

<-------[A]---------------------------[C]------->

is the dividing line representing whether a rape actually happened. [A] represents whether a rape allegation is false beyond a reasonable doubt, while [C] represents whether a rape allegation is true beyond a reasonable doubt.

Unfortunately, between [A] and [C] somebody isn't going to get the justice they deserve, but the legal system relies on the presumption that it's better to risk letting the guilty go free than to risk punishing the innocent. If we held rape accusers to a lesser standard of proof than the defendants they accuse and punished them for a rape allegation that "probably" didn't happen, that would chill many victims from reporting crimes that really happened. For better or worse, that built-in margin of error from [A] to [C] is the best we can do with our legal system.
 
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#803
#803
Madscientistvol said:
Proving it is a false claim is just as iffy as proving rape and its quite likely and probable that neither can be proven. A not guilty verdict doesn't mean he didn't in fact do it, it means that there was insufficient proof to convict. However, I do agree with you in cases that can clearly be proven to be false accusations.
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There is definitely no perfect answer. I don't want to open up a can of worms and this case could be legit, but I feel that frivolous lawsuits are such a big problem in this country. Either way I hope justice is served.
 
#804
#804
Found this article posted on USA Today about 10 days ago and thought I'd post it. Up until now you only heard rumors that Drae Bowles was involved with the rape case, and allegedly encouraged the woman to call 911 for the non-rape that occurred that he thought was rape[rumor]. Well, now it's official that he was in fact listed on the witness list for the grand jury. Drae Bowles, D'Andre Payne, and Bowles' father were all listed on the witness list.

That's pretty interesting info if nothing else.

"Two former Tennessee football players, Drae Bowles and D'Andre Payne, were also on the witness list for the grand jury proceedings. Bowles and Payne were on the roster at the time of the alleged rape, but both have since transferred out of the university. Bowles' father was also on the witness list."
NFL withdraws combine invite to Tennessee player investigated for rape

siap
 
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#806
#806
crparker21 said:
Not a witness. I think the person bringing charges should have to pay if they/government representation loses. I have friends that went to trial in the same way on a he said she said evidence and they were found not guilty. They had to shell out 15 to 20k to prove it. I understand you can counter with a civil case but that's more money out of pocket and more time wasted by the court system. I don't want to deter people from seeking criminal charges where they are justified but something has to be done about all of the nonsense cases as well.
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Your friends didn't prove themselves innocent. They simply couldn't be proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. They still could very well be guilty, but the prosecution couldn't prove it. That's hardly the victim's fault.

Maybe someone did go through a rapekit exam and repeatedly tell the same story of being degraded to various audiences just to mess with your friends, but the fact of the matter is, it's not a fun process for someone to bring a rape complaint. And it shouldn't be assumed that claims that don't result in convictions are baseless. It's a very difficult task to prove (beyond a reasonable doubt) any assault that occurs in private between two individuals. Doesn't mean we need to add more deterrents to discourage victims from coming forward.
 
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#807
#807
Coug said:
Found this article posted on USA Today about 10 days ago and thought I'd post it. Up until now you only heard rumors that Drae Bowles was involved with the rape case, and allegedly encouraged the woman to call 911 for the non-rape that occurred that he thought was rape[rumor]. Well, now it's official that he was in fact listed on the witness list for the grand jury. Drae Bowles, D'Andre Payne, and Bowles' father were all listed on the witness list.

That's pretty interesting info if nothing else.

"Two former Tennessee football players, Drae Bowles and D'Andre Payne, were also on the witness list for the grand jury proceedings. Bowles and Payne were on the roster at the time of the alleged rape, but both have since transferred out of the university. Bowles' father was also on the witness list."
NFL withdraws combine invite to Tennessee player investigated for rape

siap
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Also listed as witnesses were several of the rowing team members. All at the party??
 
#808
#808
AboveAllNations said:
Sure, but the presumption of innocence cuts both ways in the case of a he said/she said rape allegation . Unless her allegations are provably false beyond a reasonable doubt, an accuser can't be punished just because her story wasn't provably true beyond a reasonable doubt. Here's the spectrum we're talking about:

Rape didn't happened - - - - - - - - - Rape happened

<-------[A]---------------------------[C]------->

is the dividing line representing whether a rape actually happened. [A] represents whether a rape allegation is false beyond a reasonable doubt, while [C] represents whether a rape allegation is true beyond a reasonable doubt.

Unfortunately, between [A] and [C] somebody isn't going to get the justice they deserve, but the legal system relies on the presumption that it's better to risk letting the guilty go free than to risk punishing the innocent. If we held rape accusers to a lesser standard of proof than the defendants they accuse and punished them for a rape allegation that "probably" didn't happen, that would chill many victims from reporting crimes that really happened. For better or worse, that built-in margin of error from [A] to [C] is the best we can do with our legal system.
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I understand and I agree overall. I don't think that the government should take a position that makes victims coming forward less likely, but I do believe we the people should take a position that favors innocence of the accused until the vast resources of the government can prove otherwise.
 
#809
#809
All this for a case no one knows a thing about. Sadly they could have particiapated in a horrible act and harmed that poor girl. At the same time, who knows she could be a crazy ex getting final payback for something we know nothing about. Go ask a cop in a big city how many false calls they get... crap happens just wait til the case is over and leave it at that
 
#810
#810
BigTCountry said:
All this for a case no one knows a thing about. Sadly they could have particiapated in a horrible act and harmed that poor girl. At the same time, who knows she could be a crazy ex getting final payback for something we know nothing about. Go ask a cop in a big city how many false calls they get... crap happens just wait til the case is over and leave it at that
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Just wonder what the percent of false claims is at this point. I could think of other ways to get even with someone other than committing a felony.
 
#811
#811
MFL said:
Just wonder what the percent of false claims is at this point. I could think of other ways to get even with someone other than committing a felony.
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A false claim is even harder to prove than a true one. It is VERY rare to ever prosecuted for filing a false rape claim. And those times in which it IS false, jealousy and bitterness are not the mindset that helps people think through things. Women do some very manipulative things at times, just like men do some very stupid things. But either way, a rape without violence is hard to prove that it wasnt consensual - especially if, as is rumored, she sent AJ texts prior looking to hook up for a booty call.
 
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#812
#812
#813
#813
It's been kinda hard to explain to my 7 yo son why his favorite Vol player isn't going to the NFL, nonetheless, play his last 3 games! AJ's last game my was my son's first game at Neyland.
 
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#814
#814
oregonvol said:
Your friends didn't prove themselves innocent. They simply couldn't be proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. They still could very well be guilty, but the prosecution couldn't prove it. That's hardly the victim's fault.

Maybe someone did go through a rapekit exam and repeatedly tell the same story of being degraded to various audiences just to mess with your friends, but the fact of the matter is, it's not a fun process for someone to bring a rape complaint. And it shouldn't be assumed that claims that don't result in convictions are baseless. It's a very difficult task to prove (beyond a reasonable doubt) any assault that occurs in private between two individuals. Doesn't mean we need to add more deterrents to discourage victims from coming forward.
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Actually my friends case was not rape, it was theft but I understand your point. I guess my point is when you have nothing to lose then it's easy to accuse somebody of anything. I truly feel bad for anybody that has any crime committed against them. However there are so many cases out there that are brought to court by individual when nothing actually happened and they walk away with no punishment. This promotes you can bring false accusations against anybody.
 
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#815
#815
Z06VolinWV said:
It's been kinda hard to explain to my 7 yo son why his favorite Vol player isn't going to the NFL, nonetheless, play his last 3 games! AJ's last game my was my son's first game at Neyland.
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Parenting is tough, but at least as a parent you are addressing it and making an attempt to explain. Innocent or Guilty there are many teaching points to kids in this incident.

If innocent and AJ makes it to the NFL then there will be even more. Problem is we may never know the truth but we will always see the results regardless of the truth.
 
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#816
#816
crparker21 said:
Actually my friends case was not rape, it was theft but I understand your point. I guess my point is when you have nothing to lose then it's easy to accuse somebody of anything. I truly feel bad for anybody that has any crime committed against them. However there are so many cases out there that are brought to court by individual when nothing actually happened and they walk away with no punishment. This promotes you can bring false accusations against anybody.
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Rape and theft are very different though. For theft it is really easy to accuse anyone. But, at the same time, with a theft, there should be very clear evidence of physical possession or transfer of goods. With rape (or really with any case of assault between two individuals in private) evidence is far more difficult and the evidence that does exist is subject to more interpretation.

But it is hardly easy for the victim to accuse someone in a rape case. It's not like a robbery. You can't just point the finger and have the police do the investigation. With a rape, you have to go through a rapekit exam, which is very invasive and uncomfortable.

I have a close friend who was a rape crisis counselor for many years. According to her, most women who initially report a rape decide against pressing charges when they find out that they have to go through a rapekit exam and what it entails. Many describe the rapekit exam as being like getting raped all over again. Then, after all of that, they have to tell their story in detail to the cops, to the DA, to a grand jury, and to a petit jury and courtroom audience and be cross examined by a defense attorney who will pry into every aspect of their private life. That's hardly just a matter of just pointing a finger at someone as you are trying to suggest.

With all they have to go through, I tend to give girls who go through this process the benefit of the doubt. I'm not saying that there aren't still false accusations, because there certainly are, but I'd imagine that would much more be the exception than the rule. It seems like it would take a uniquely crazy individual to want to subject themselves to all of that, just to mess with some dude.
 
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#817
#817
volger said:
He said she said case imo. He could be hung like a horse which may explain the results of the rape kit. Tearing and blood etc.

Hurts for her and or hurts for knowing her friends or family she is banging a black football player. Assuming she is white. jag
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There's this thing they make called lube....

Most people don't engage in sex with the intent to hurt someone, therefore tearing and bleeding is more likely a sign of forced trama.
 
#818
#818
daj2576 said:
Does it worry you more that a guilty man might go free, or that an innocent man might be found guilty?
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I have always found it equally troubling that either might be true.

In either case, the state is not protecting and caring for its citizens as well as it could.

I know the politically correct libertarian response is that it's more troubling an innocent might be found guilty, but then you have a guilty rapist running around instead.

See? No good answer. Therefore, trick (albeit realistic) question.
 
#821
#821
daj2576 said:
Does it worry you more that a guilty man might go free, or that an innocent man might be found guilty?
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I tend to agree with Blackstone's formulation:

"It is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer" - Sir William Blackstone
 
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#823
#823
Volstylexx said:
There's this thing they make called lube....

Most people don't engage in sex with the intent to hurt someone, therefore tearing and bleeding is more likely a sign of forced trama.
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I've never used it for vaginal sex. Maybe they rushed in before she was ready for it. No one knows the circumstances. I don't pretend to either.
 
#825
#825
Maybe he had consensual sex, then Williams insisted on having sex as well, against her will, and Johnson helped restrain her. That's aggravated rape, I'm pretty sure.
 
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