Affordability discussion (split from Iran thread)

[LouderVol]

Student loans are a killer. IMO your generation got hoodwinked by the college industrial complex.

yeah. its one of the many predatory debt options out there. like I said a real financial ed class would go a long way to navigating this stuff. its unavoidable, and not really a problem if you actually have a plan and stick to it. but having a plan isn't easy.

it wasn't AS big of an issue for me, and my classmates. but just 6 years after with my sisters class, its a real problem.

when I started a semester at UT was 4k, when I graduated it was 8k. you get the hope scholarship, and those are manageable loans assuming you actually pay them off. living on campus was pretty cheap too only a couple grand for a semester.

my sister at UT undergrad started at 15k after fees for tuition. and 10k a semester for on campus housing, a semester. hope scholarship stayed the same. that adds up pretty quickly. thankfully she is driven and raised by the same dollar conscience dad, and got that all taken care of shortly after.

 

[85SugarVol]

Student loans are a killer. IMO your generation got hoodwinked by the college industrial complex.

I had student loans for undergraduate school.
I had student loans for graduate school.

Here’s a little known hack for dealing with them - if you pay them, they go away.

 

[McDad]

not really. eventually a cousin moved in with me, but that was solely for his benefit not mine.

first 6 months I lived with family and had a 2hr commute. Worked in Midtown lived in Powder Springs, the far side.

next 6 months I moved in town, by myself, to "Sandy Springs", which is theoretically a nice area, and 8 miles from work, commute was still at least an hour and a half. my apartment wasn't nice, cops were outside my building at least once a week, stopped waking up to the flashing lights.
bought my first car, used, while there, mostly off of savings I inherited from dead relatives, and entered my peanut butter and sometimes jelly phase. eventually figured out bagged salads, and canned soups were cheap too. I think rent was like 500 or 600 a month. I was making about 30k then.

for the next 6-7 years, I lived in a studio apartment that was about 1k a month, and took the train to work. during this time health insurance went from 50 bucks a month to about 300 thanks to ACA, that was the roughest period because there was no way for me to control or mitigate that. until I moved out in March 2020 (anyone remember what was going on then?) when rent had gone up to 2k a month. i went from making 40k a year there to about 70k when I left. Finally got internet a year or two after moving into that apartment, and eventually could afford to regularly buy actual non-deli-meat.

after that I moved into a 2 bedroom, was paying about 1.8k, and my cousin moved in shortly after because he got a job in the area. was further away from my job, but near a train station. we were in a latino complex. solo gringos.

when I bought the house, cousin came with until the missus moved in. I kept his "rent" well below market rate. he was shocked and grateful when he moved out and saw how much rent was. he is paying more than 2x as much for renting one bedroom in a split up house, much further from work. he told me when he moved out he wouldn't have been able to afford a place on his own when he first moved in. his work is blue collar warehouse stuff. even in the 'burbs his options for living were extremely limited.

I never had student loans, so that is one thing that really helped me, but wasn't the case for most my age.

Were you so inclined, your living expenses could have been reduced with a room mate. I know it is a hassle, but it is another viable way to facilitate home ownership.
I am not making light of the challenges. I am the first to admit wages have not rebounded as quickly as they have in the past wrt inflation. But I am not ready to classify things as a crisis.
More young adults appear to be moving back in with parents which, if they're responsible, can fast track their savings growth.

 

[McDad]

Student loans are a killer. IMO your generation got hoodwinked by the college industrial complex.

I posted yesterday about my pet peeve of "kids" going to colleges for 200k who are pursuing a social work or elem education degree.

The ROI does not and will never make sense for those careers. They need to attend community college and then an in-state public university while working part time to help out with tuition to make it viable.

 

[McDad]

I had student loans for undergraduate school.
I had student loans for graduate school.

Here’s a little known hack for dealing with them - if you pay them, they go away.

Freaking Dave Ramsey over hurr.

 

[hog88]

yeah. its one of the many predatory debt options out there. like I said a real financial ed class would go a long way to navigating this stuff. its unavoidable, and not really a problem if you actually have a plan and stick to it. but having a plan isn't easy.

it wasn't AS big of an issue for me, and my classmates. but just 6 years after with my sisters class, its a real problem.

when I started a semester at UT was 4k, when I graduated it was 8k. you get the hope scholarship, and those are manageable loans assuming you actually pay them off. living on campus was pretty cheap too only a couple grand for a semester.

my sister at UT undergrad started at 15k after fees for tuition. and 10k a semester for on campus housing, a semester. hope scholarship stayed the same. that adds up pretty quickly. thankfully she is driven and raised by the same dollar conscience dad, and got that all taken care of shortly after.

The lottery scholarship in TN is a scam. Our sons freshman class was the first or second class to get the scholarship and you'll be shocked by this but tuition went up by almost exactly the same amount of the scholarship.

 

[hog88]

I had student loans for undergraduate school.
I had student loans for graduate school.

Here’s a little known hack for dealing with them - if you pay them, they go away.

I'm just spitballing here but I'm going to guess that you got a useful degree and didn't take out tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars in loans for an English major or something just as useless?

 

[hog88]

I posted yesterday about my pet peeve of "kids" going to colleges for 200k who are pursuing a social work or elem education degree.

The ROI does not and will never make sense for those careers. They need to attend community college and then an in-state public university while working part time to help out with tuition to make it viable.

A business associate sent his oldest to Vandy where she got her BA and masters in elementary education, taught 1 year a decided it wasn't for her. Youngest went to Cumberland for her BA and masters in history, worked for the state for 1 year before deciding she needed to go find herself. Now in the grand scheme of things it worked out for his oldest because she met and married a Vandy grad who makes stupid money (in the 7 figures) so I consider that a decent ROI on her Vandy education.

 

[DinkinFlicka]

I thought you had some rentals?

That was back before houses tripled in price and the market was full of fixer uppers in Knoxville as low as 20k. Those were also bought with cash.

Can't say I lived in any of them for more than a few months.

 

[hog88]

That was back before houses tripled in price and the market was full of fixer uppers in Knoxville as low as 20k. Those were also bought with cash.

Can't say I lived in any of them for more than a few months.

You sell them to finance your playboy lifestyle?

 

[DinkinFlicka]

You sell them to finance your playboy lifestyle?

Pretty much.

Wish I'd held onto one or two of them.

 

[Volnanza]

Student loans are a killer. IMO your generation got hoodwinked by the college industrial complex.

One of the biggest scams around. That's what happens when you put the responsibility under government control. Kids borrowing tens of thousands of dollars and taking junk courses. It was as bad of and idea as you can come up with. It did exactly what it was designed to do. Put the young (inexperienced/gullible/stupid) into crippling debt before they understand what it will do to them. Make them debtor slaves for most of their lives. The sad part is that the government is still in control of it.

 

[ButchPlz]

One of the biggest scams around. That's what happens when you put the responsibility under government control. Kids borrowing tens of thousands of dollars and taking junk courses. It was as bad of and idea as you can come up with. It did exactly what it was designed to do. Put the young (inexperienced/gullible/stupid) into crippling debt before they understand what it will do to them. Make them debtor slaves for most of their lives. The sad part is that the government is still in control of it.

But who was it that was telling everyone college education was basically required for entry into the workforce? Kids didn't just basically decide to sign up for that stuff.

 

[OHvol40]

You gotta admit it's a viable option to your "crisis". Yes?

Yes, if you are ok with living one way and then lowering standards for the generations that follow you.

 

[85SugarVol]

I'm just spitballing here but I'm going to guess that you got a useful degree and didn't take out tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars in loans for an English major or something just as useless?

Both degrees from a College of Business. One a Bachelor. The other, three letters that tend to offend your delicate sensibilities

 

[OHvol40]

Some of your other numbers have already been addressed by others. Still, the $500 car note reduces your “crisis” to “choice”.

This hypothetical individual is obviously renting, I’d say $1000 a month at least. Combined with the $500 car payment that’s $1500 a month - enough for monthly mortgage payment on a reasonable starter home, especially with attempts to tighten up expenses elsewhere.

They’ve chosen this position.
They’ve haven’t been forced into it.

Mmmhhhm, all I did was pull the national average for common expenses and salary for a 30 year old living in the US.

This isn’t a difficult idea. You consider how easy it is to get a job, what said job pays, what it costs to live a basic life and meet your basic needs, then go back in time and compare and contrast.

 

[hog88]

Both degrees from a College of Business. One a Bachelor. The other, three letters that tend to offend your delicate sensibilities

I've noticed the signs.

 

[GroverCleveland]

I had student loans for undergraduate school.
I had student loans for graduate school.

Here’s a little known hack for dealing with them - if you pay them, they go away.

My son complains about his student debt, somewhere around $80-90k for a masters in Civil Engineering from Ga Tech. Licensed engineer. Makes pretty good money.

But likes taking vacations to Japan, and Europe and SA, etc. Pays the minimum on the loan debt. Biden convinced him the Federal Gov was going to pay it off.

 

[TheDeeble]

But who was it that was telling everyone college education was basically required for entry into the workforce? Kids didn't just basically decide to sign up for that stuff.

As a high school student in the 90's that idea came directly from our teachers/guidance counselors at high school. Everyone was directed to college. I remember being told multiple times through high school "It doesn't matter what you study in college, businesses just want to see you committed and graduated with a 4 year degree". And how was college supposed to be paid for? Student loans. It was great according to the educators. Student loans would pay for tuition. Student loans could pay for housing. You could go to college at little cost to yourself and pay it back when you get your six figure job doing whatever crap degree they said you would be hired with. It was a lie. Some of my teachers would make fun of people in trades. "You don't want to be sweating in someone's attic working on an air conditioner, or have your hands in a toilet working as a plumber. Those people were stupid. They weren't smart enough to go to college. They deserved to be looked down on. The smart people will go to college and sit in an office making 6 figures a year in white collar jobs.

All that sounded absurd to me even as a 17 year old.

 

[ButchPlz]

As a high school student in the 90's that idea came directly from our teachers/guidance counselors at high school. Everyone was directed to college. I remember being told multiple times through high school "It doesn't matter what you study in college, businesses just want to see you committed and graduated with a 4 year degree". And how was college supposed to be paid for? Student loans. It was great according to the educators. Student loans would pay for tuition. Student loans could pay for housing. You could go to college at little cost to yourself and pay it back when you get your six figure job doing whatever crap degree they said you would be hired with. It was a lie. Some of my teachers would make fun of people in trades. "You don't want to be sweating in someone's attic working on an air conditioner, or have your hands in a toilet working as a plumber. Those people were stupid. They weren't smart enough to go to college. They deserved to be looked down on. The smart people will go to college and sit in an office making 6 figures a year in white collar jobs.

All that sounded absurd to me even as a 17 year old.

Perhaps you're special, but for a lot of kids, that type of pressure isn't so easy to overcome. Especially when you're convinced it's the only way to have success in life.

 

[85SugarVol]

Mmmhhhm, all I did was pull the national average for common expenses and salary for a 30 year old living in the US.

This isn’t a difficult idea. You consider how easy it is to get a job, what said job pays, what it costs to live a basic life and meet your basic needs, then go back in time and compare and contrast.

I went and looked, the average car note for Gen Z is actually greater than $500 per month.

So yea, not a “crisis” in the slightest. Those with a $600 car payment, complaining they can’t buy the house they “want”, are in a position only themselves put them in.

 

[85SugarVol]

I've noticed the signs.

 

[85SugarVol]

My son complains about his student debt, somewhere around $80-90k for a masters in Civil Engineering from Ga Tech. Licensed engineer. Makes pretty good money.

But likes taking vacations to Japan, and Europe and SA, etc. Pays the minimum on the loan debt. Biden convinced him the Federal Gov was going to pay it off.

Choices

 

[purp]

I went and looked, the average car note for Gen Z is actually greater than $500 per month.

So yea, not a “crisis” in the slightest. Those with a $600 car payment, complaining they can’t buy the house they “want”, are in a position only themselves put them in.

I work with 2 that bought a new Jeep and Kia with both being on 7 year loans. Wild.

 

[hog88]

I went and looked, the average car note for Gen Z is actually greater than $500 per month.

So yea, not a “crisis” in the slightest. Those with a $600 car payment, complaining they can’t buy the house they “want”, are in a position only themselves put them in.

Speaking of your 3 letter designation. I was on the phone with one a little earlier:

MDA: I see that you're company has declined to submit a quote for our RFQ
Me: That's correct
MDA: Our companies have been doing business for a number of years, why would you elect to end that relationship
Me: You have gone to a 90 day pay that in reality turns to 120 and XYZ is just not a big enough piece of our business to finance your operations
MDA: You are not offering financing to our company
Me: When we have to pay our vendors in 30-45 days and you don't pay us for 90-120 we are financing your operations and we simply elect not to do that anymore
MDA: You cannot look at the business relationship like that, this is a 3 year contract so you should negotiate with your vendors to match our payment terms
Me: I'm not even going to try and it's not a 3 year contract, the reality is it's a 30 day contract since it has a 30 day out for either party and our current 3 year contract was terminated after a little over a year when XYZ decided to change payment terms and hired a 3rd party management/payment company
MDA: I don't think you understand how cashflow works
Me: I do understand how it works and that's why we declined to submit a quote