Abortions and the bible.

#51
#51
n_huffhines said:
When does it become intelligent/sacred life? That is the question. Before that point, it is not homicide/murder. After that point it is. Anybody acting like they know when that point is not reasonable. I would say it's obviously sacred life if it's developed enough to survive premature birth, but anything earlier than that is a big ol' question mark.
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Very true. I certainly haven't found an answer in stone. The first time this dilemma was presented to me was on this forum by TRUT. Personhood is much harder to distinguish than is life (for me).
 
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#52
#52
luthervol said:
That's about as magical as a sperm (I guess a non-living thing) swimming around looking for an egg to fertilize.
I just do not view a zygote as a human life. Again, some do and some don't.
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Sperm is a living thing. It meets the criteria which defines living things. I don't find any magic in swimming around looking for an egg to fertilize because how those processes happen are known. The transformation of the egg membrane is not (again, according to my understanding from over 20 years ago).
 
#53
#53
McDad said:
Very true. I certainly haven't found an answer in stone. The first time this dilemma was presented to me was on this forum by TRUT. Personhood is much harder to distinguish than is life (for me).
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And the brilliance of Rowe vs. Wade is that it acknowledges that fact.
 
#54
#54
McDad said:
Sperm is a living thing. It meets the criteria which defines living things. I don't find any magic in swimming around looking for an egg to fertilize because how those processes happen are known. The transformation of the egg membrane is not (again, according to my understanding from over 20 years ago).
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You are using magic to mean that the process isn't fully known and understood?
 
#57
#57
05_never_again said:
Those laws might have been passed by conservatives, but clearly that is not their end goal and seen as an incremental step. That's no different than Democrats in the Alabama Legislature proposing amendments to the abortion bill that allowed exceptions in the cases of rape and murder, which is actually a conservative position. They were just trying to get something, anything, that was closer to their actual position.

I'm talking about pro-choicers who believe abortions should be illegal after a certain point in the pregnancy, and there are many of them.
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Of which I am one. Let's discuss.
 
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#59
#59
K-town Vol Fan said:
In the bible, God murdered Bathsheba's newborn baby, killed all the first born sons in Egypt, sent bears to murder children, commanded Joshua to murder the children in Jericho, and all babies were wiped out during the flood. It also talks about dismembering children and cutting them out of the mother's womb.

So please help me understand, why do some crazy Republican Christians think their God doesnt approve aborting a fetus of an unwanted pregnancy?
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I agree with your question and think its valid. I think it is a great question that demands a reasonable answer.

The answer you will get from those that have actually thought about this will boil down to God is God and he makes the rules, more or less. The inconsistency will be waved off because God can't be inconsistent, by definition, or some such.

The problem with debating this is it requires the assumption of God, specifically the Christian God, and even more specifically the flavor of Christian God believed by the one you are debating, and it will quickly devolve into arguing his existence. Since such a claim is non-falsifiable, it will be a lot of effort not convincing anybody of either position.
 
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#62
#62
McDad said:
Sperm is a living thing. It meets the criteria which defines living things. I don't find any magic in swimming around looking for an egg to fertilize because how those processes happen are known. The transformation of the egg membrane is not (again, according to my understanding from over 20 years ago).
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Cell Surface Changes in the Egg at Fertilization

More is known about this than the mechanism behind general anesthesia which works on plants devoid of central nervous systems.
 
#64
#64
marcusluvsvols said:
Yeah, so God designs us humans to incubate for about 40 weeks in the womb before the mothers body is naturally triggered to deliver...lets surgically alter that timeline, say cut it in half or worse, pull the baby out and then blame a God that the person probably doesnt believe in when the baby dies. Makes perfect sense, sound logic.





Yes. Mitosis (cell splitting replication) starts almost immediately when the egg is fertilized. At that moment, it has its own unique DNA different from everyone else on earth, and is growing exponentially one cell division at a time. It is a life, a new life, all its own. No matter how advantageous and perfect the lab experiment is set up, no matter which or how many artificial stimuli are added, scientists cannot replicate this. They can alter life, thru genetic modification, such as the man made e.coli bacteria that was recently "created" 1 amino acid at a time from another living E.coli...but man cannot give life, or a soul, to anything. Only God Almighty can do so. I wonder if these pregnant young ladies were told exactly how many days or weeks along they are, and shown how much the baby jas developed at that stage, some of which is amazing to me, then given a mandatory 72 hour waiting period to "cool off" like everyone gets when buying a pistol....how many more of them would decide to keep the baby, even if it meant putting it up for adoption? What if they were assured they wouldnt be in debt for the child birth, or that it could be delivered by Csection if they were too scared of natural childbirth? As a country we have already killed i believe 60 million unborn babies. That is staggering, and should be to anyone. If education could be used to stop this tragedy, then we should be all over it. This 1 huge sin is what makes me think America is the "whore" that is described in Revelations. It is shameful
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No surgery necessary to induce labor.

I am not going to debate when "life" begins as it is an unnecessary distraction. There is a point in pregnancy when the life of the unborn is given a bundle of rights superior to that of the already born. For me, that point is viability. Prior to viability, the rights of the born are given superior status after that point it becomes the unborn rights that are superior.
 
#66
#66
ClearwaterVol said:
Of which I am one. Let's discuss.
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Ok then, the question is simple - if at no point the unborn being is a human life, or if not a life something other than a clump of cells that is entitled to some kind of protection, why have limits on it?

If it's a medical procedure in the same vein as an appendix removal, what's the big deal? Allow them at any point during the pregnancy.
 
#70
#70
luthervol said:
It's not murder. But isn't that kind of the sticking point.
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A life is being taken. That's murder. You just quibble because it makes you uncomfortable to admit that women are killing their own children.

You have to change the vocabulary to lie to yourself. This is how I know there is no real argument for it. You cant directly talk about it.
 
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#71
#71
Mick said:
Next time a woman has a miscarriage, we should hold god responsible for the death of the unborn fetus. God is a stone cold baby killer.
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All deaths are not created equal.
If God reached down and snuffed this one particular life out directly we can have a conversation.
Woman stays on alcohol or drugs, she is at fault. Her man beats her, he is at fault, she trips and falls, no one is at fault.

We are talking about a conscience decision to act to end a life of one related to you.
 
#72
#72
FLVOL_79 said:
I find it humorous the OP doesnt even understand the basic premise of Christianity. Not surprising..
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Given the disagreements on Christianity currently going on in the Bible thread I don't find it surprising either. For anybody.
 
#73
#73
luthervol said:
No problem.
My point is that I don't assign any magical status to the second a sperm penetrates an egg. Some do.
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I wait until the fertilized egg gets implanted, and when the womans body starts to react. Her body knows she is a mom, killing off the child doesnt change the fact her body was changing. Not some magical line I draw, the mothers body does it for me. Her body is reacting to another life, not her own. Which means hands off.
 
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