A church/state issue?

#51
#51
Gramps said:
We have an ordinance in my town that no alcohol can be sold with x feet of a church , park or recreational park. We have had it for years, no big deal.
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We all have blue laws, particularly in the south but these are "new" blue laws that are influenced by Islam. Not that it is bad in and of itself but to demonstrate the influence the immigrants have on the culture and laws.
 
#52
#52
gasguy98 said:
So is this a church and state issue? It seems to me it could be one. Are other churches given the option of something similar? At face value it looks benign but when one starts to peel back the onion I think the real long term agenda becomes clear: An official religion. I know the state is not broadcasting the call to prayers but I think it is a clear case of a culture giving way for another to replace it, all due to massive immigration. Whether one sees this as a potential constitutional issue or cultural revolution one thing is for sure; this won't be the last time we see this happen.

Muslim-majority city council may be 1st in USA
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So you are saying (for the thousandth time) Muslims are bad? Trying to take over the US? Sharia law type stuff?

I think everyone here understands where you are coming from, we really do. No need to post further. You are suspicions of Muslims. All of them. Every single one. We get it.
 
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#53
#53
gasguy98 said:
Tension: Barbara Zielinska, 60, is unsettled by groups of young Arab men congregating late at night. 'We have an invasion of Muslims here now,' she said. 'I'm not afraid to say what needs to be said. '

I guess she is just a fear monger, right Clearwater? Or since she is 60 and white her opinion does not count. Oh and there is no ISIS or threat of terrorism from Islamic countries. Nope, none, never.

Inside Hamtramck, America's only Muslim-majority city, where the call to prayer echoes in the streets - and Syrian refugees are welcomed in defiance of the governor | Daily Mail Online
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Let's put your quote in context...


Barbara Zielinska, 60, is unsettled by groups of young Arab men congregating late at night.
'We have an invasion of Muslims here now,' she said. 'I'm not afraid to say what needs to be said.
'They buy the houses, they take all the parking, they are very loud. My neighbors have late night meetings all the time with big groups of Muslim men who come from out of state.
'They could be plotting something and I don't know if I should report it to the police. A lot of them seem to live off benefits and not work.'
That last accusation irritates Husain Hizam, 45, who runs a shop called VIP Clothing but actually sells everything from Islamic artwork to rugs and curtains.
His father Mohamed came to the US from Yemen in the 1970s and worked as an assemblyman at a Chrysler car plant in Detroit for 30 years.
'He worked hard, he showed us the American Way,' said Husain. 'This is a country of chances, the more you work the more you earn.'
Mr Hizam said his customers included both Muslims and non-Muslims, with Polish women particularly drawn to his ornate, bejeweled evening dresses.
'I don't value one type of customer over another,' he said. 'If I did I would go out of business. What we see on the TV and the things happening in Paris, it worries me.
'But we all get along here. One neighbor is Polish, the other is Vietnamese - we are like one big family.'

Absolutely, she is basing her statements on nothing more than speculation. Complete fear mongering.
 
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#54
#54
gasguy98 said:
We all have blue laws, particularly in the south but these are "new" blue laws that are influenced by Islam. Not that it is bad in and of itself but to demonstrate the influence the immigrants have on the culture and laws.
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Are you saying that there is a substantive difference, in the eyes of the law, between a church and a mosque. How about a church and a synagogue? Synagogue and a mosque? Just trying to find the line in the sand. How about a Church of Scientology and a Baptist Church?
 
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#55
#55
Its been awhile but I have spent time in both Egypt, Turkey and Morocco. Let me tell you...the call to prayer is not equivalent to some quaint, in the background, Methodist church chimes at the end of the day in Tennessee. The first time I saw it still sticks in my mind. Loud speakers wailed in Alexandria about 5 o'clock and thousands of people walked out of every building from every direction and got on their knees. I thought to myself these people are being controlled...some sort of mass hysteria. It didn't matter what was going on, those people were compelled, ordered, to go to prayer when it was called. If you want to draw an equivalent example, this would be more appropriate: Instead of gentle church chimes at the end of the day, the Baptist church could broadcast all over town to come out and pray 5 times a day, ordering the acceptance of Jesus Christ and Christianity.
 
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#56
#56
ClearwaterVol said:
Your objection seems to be primarily religious in nature.

Again, the call to prayers is really no different than church bells. As to the liquor license issue, if mosques are being treated differently than other religious buildings then the lawsuit is an easy win.

Are you seriously telling me that Chinatown, Koreatown, Little Italy were fueled by a strong desire to assimilate? You are better than that. Why aren't you gung ho against the Quakers, the Orthodox Jewish Communities and numerous others that have taken over areas and live without a desire to assimilate into the mainstream.
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You bring up some valid points. In the end the big thing that separates the groups you mentioned to the groups discussed now is this whole terrorism thing. I write these examples of influencing laws and culture to convey the fact that the bigger their influence over a town or area the greater the chances that radicalism can occur. The FBI itself has stated that there are terrorist cells in all 50 states (I believe). The little creep that killed in Chattanooga was by all accounts normal but he was radicalized somewhere along the line. I believe that the bigger this community grows the greater the chance that a violent terrorist attack could be conceived.

The Paris murderers were all born in Europe.
 
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#57
#57
ClearwaterVol said:
Are you saying that there is a substantive difference, in the eyes of the law, between a church and a mosque. How about a church and a synagogue? Synagogue and a mosque? Just trying to find the line in the sand. How about a Church of Scientology and a Baptist Church?
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You are missing the point. Buildings have nothing to do with it. It is the fact that this population is growing very fast and influencing laws.
 
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#58
#58
Ernest T. Vol said:
Its been awhile but I have spent time in both Egypt, Turkey and Morocco. Let me tell you...the call to prayer is not equivalent to some quaint, in the background, Methodist church chimes at the end of the day in Tennessee. The first time I saw it still sticks in my mind. Loud speakers wailed in Alexandria about 5 o'clock and thousands of people walked out of every building from every direction and got on their knees. I thought to myself these people are being controlled...some sort of mass hysteria. It didn't matter what was going on, those people were compelled, ordered, to go to prayer when it was called. If you want to draw an equivalent example, this would be more appropriate: Instead of gentle church chimes at the end of the day, the Baptist church could broadcast all over town to come out and pray 5 times a day, ordering the acceptance of Jesus Christ and Christianity.
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It's perspective and perhaps a different time. The church bells used to bring the community to the church for prayer. It is a time gone by, but the difference is mainly based upon what the listener is used to hearing. I imagine for the Muslims the church bells might be grating. For me, not so much.
 
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#59
#59
ClearwaterVol said:
Let's put your quote in context...


Barbara Zielinska, 60, is unsettled by groups of young Arab men congregating late at night.
'We have an invasion of Muslims here now,' she said. 'I'm not afraid to say what needs to be said.
'They buy the houses, they take all the parking, they are very loud. My neighbors have late night meetings all the time with big groups of Muslim men who come from out of state.
'They could be plotting something and I don't know if I should report it to the police. A lot of them seem to live off benefits and not work.'
That last accusation irritates Husain Hizam, 45, who runs a shop called VIP Clothing but actually sells everything from Islamic artwork to rugs and curtains.
His father Mohamed came to the US from Yemen in the 1970s and worked as an assemblyman at a Chrysler car plant in Detroit for 30 years.
'He worked hard, he showed us the American Way,' said Husain. 'This is a country of chances, the more you work the more you earn.'
Mr Hizam said his customers included both Muslims and non-Muslims, with Polish women particularly drawn to his ornate, bejeweled evening dresses.
'I don't value one type of customer over another,' he said. 'If I did I would go out of business. What we see on the TV and the things happening in Paris, it worries me.
'But we all get along here. One neighbor is Polish, the other is Vietnamese - we are like one big family.'

Absolutely, she is basing her statements on nothing more than speculation. Complete fear mongering.
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Read the news or do a google search on Islamic terrorism and get back to me.

And many DO live off benefits and do not work. That is another issue I have not addressed.
 
#60
#60
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#61
#61
gasguy98 said:
You are missing the point. Buildings have nothing to do with it. It is the fact that this population is growing very fast and influencing laws.
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No, you are missing the point. The law has been in place and now there is a mosque. It had never been applied to mosques only traditional churches. If it is applicable to churches it must be applicable to mosques. This isn't an example of laws created to protect muslims it is a law that was enacted to protect all religions.
 
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#63
#63
ClearwaterVol said:
It's perspective and perhaps a different time. The church bells used to bring the community to the church for prayer. It is a time gone by, but the difference is mainly based upon what the listener is used to hearing. I imagine for the Muslims the church bells might be grating. For me, not so much.
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The difference is in the secularity. It is understood in this country, the Methodist chimes are take it or leave it...they don't go on 5 times a day...and no one shows up at your house to get an explanation of why you didn't come out into your yard and pray when the chimes rang. Hey, the Vols might be going for it on 4th down...right? We don't want to be interrupted by some Baptists screaming over a loudspeaker.
 
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#64
#64
hog88 said:
I bet that if those church bells were clanging away around 6am 7 days per week it would have lasted 1 week.
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Probably, but the school bells start at around 7 depending on the school, which I'm sure is pretty offensive to the kids.

But for me it comes down to two things:

1. When you ban one thing, you risk banning everything.

2. Local politics should be able to solve this.
 
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#65
#65
YorkVol said:
Probably, but the school bells start at around 7 depending on the school, which I'm sure is pretty offensive to the kids.

But for me it comes down to two things:

1. When you ban one thing, you risk banning everything.

2. Local politics should be able to solve this.
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Very wise words York.
 
#67
#67
gasguy98 said:
Read the news or do a google search on Islamic terrorism and get back to me.

And many DO live off benefits and do not work. That is another issue I have not addressed.
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Provide me the stats on this one, big guy. Fact is you can't other than Trump talking points.

I can on the other hand provide you this little tidbit. I was the general manager of a restaurant that sold about 50k per week. When I arrived at the restaurant I had 15 kitchen employees with an average wage of $10.00. There were 4 blacks, 6 whites and 5 hispanics. I hired a Kurdish immigrant to wash dishes hoping he would get me through the weekend. He spoke almost no English. He washed dishes for 2 weeks, he came to me and told me, through an interpreter, that he wanted to be a line cook. I told him that he had to learn the recipes and how to understand requests that would be made verbally. I also told him that he needed to find me a dishwasher.

He came back in less than a week and passed a menu test in English. His spoken English though better, still sucked. Unfortunately, he learned his spoken English from me and every other word was an f bomb. He found his replacement, another Kurdish man who spoke very little English. The first Kurdish man learned to be a line cook. I taught him to be a kitchen manager and eventually he was a gm. The second Kurdish man, though not as dedicated as the first, became a line cook and learned English within 3 or 4 months. He also brought his replacement. This process continued until the day I resigned. Without fail they worked very hard, caused no problems and rarely left my employ.

As of my last day, there were 6 Kurds in my kitchen. They all prayed several times per day and lived in the same neighborhood. They maintained a very traditional home life, but I never saw them look for a handout.
 
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#68
#68
Ernest T. Vol said:
The difference is in the secularity. It is understood in this country, the Methodist chimes are take it or leave it...they don't go on 5 times a day...and no one shows up at your house to get an explanation of why you didn't come out into your yard and pray when the chimes rang. Hey, the Vols might be going for it on 4th down...right? We don't want to be interrupted by some Baptists screaming over a loudspeaker.
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I missed this part of the article.
 
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#69
#69
Gramps said:
Good post GV.

I made a post in anterior thread a few weeks ago that applies here and goes along with what you are saying.

Christians need to be careful what they wish for. If the government can make religion A illegal it can also make religion B illegal.

I personally see no difference legally in allowing Muslims to have their call for prayer vs Christian Church bells. As others have said, if anything this is a noise ordinance issue.
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The difference I see is that one is a call to prayer and the other is a bell ringing on the hour.
 
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#70
#70
ClearwaterVol said:
Provide me the stats on this one, big guy. Fact is you can't other than Trump talking points.

I can on the other hand provide you this little tidbit. I was the general manager of a restaurant that sold about 50k per week. When I arrived at the restaurant I had 15 kitchen employees with an average wage of $10.00. There were 4 blacks, 6 whites and 5 hispanics. I hired a Kurdish immigrant to wash dishes hoping he would get me through the weekend. He spoke almost no English. He washed dishes for 2 weeks, he came to me and told me, through an interpreter, that he wanted to be a line cook. I told him that he had to learn the recipes and how to understand requests that would be made verbally. I also told him that he needed to find me a dishwasher.

He came back in less than a week and passed a menu test in English. His spoken English though better, still sucked. Unfortunately, he learned his spoken English from me and every other word was an f bomb. He found his replacement, another Kurdish man who spoke very little English. The first Kurdish man learned to be a line cook. I taught him to be a kitchen manager and eventually he was a gm. The second Kurdish man, though not as dedicated as the first, became a line cook and learned English within 3 or 4 months. He also brought his replacement. This process continued until the day I resigned. Without fail they worked very hard, caused no problems and rarely left my employ.

As of my last day, there were 6 Kurds in my kitchen. They all prayed several times per day and lived in the same neighborhood. They maintained a very traditional home life, but I never saw them look for a handout.
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Dude you are the biggest head in the sand person I have ever had a discussion with.

https://muslimstatistics.wordpress....ees-91-4-on-food-stamps-68-3-on-cash-welfare/

It stands to reason if you were capable of critical thinking. What skills do these people possess to support a family on? Some can't speak English or Spanish.
 
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#71
#71
ClearwaterVol said:
Provide me the stats on this one, big guy. Fact is you can't other than Trump talking points.

I can on the other hand provide you this little tidbit. I was the general manager of a restaurant that sold about 50k per week. When I arrived at the restaurant I had 15 kitchen employees with an average wage of $10.00. There were 4 blacks, 6 whites and 5 hispanics. I hired a Kurdish immigrant to wash dishes hoping he would get me through the weekend. He spoke almost no English. He washed dishes for 2 weeks, he came to me and told me, through an interpreter, that he wanted to be a line cook. I told him that he had to learn the recipes and how to understand requests that would be made verbally. I also told him that he needed to find me a dishwasher.

He came back in less than a week and passed a menu test in English. His spoken English though better, still sucked. Unfortunately, he learned his spoken English from me and every other word was an f bomb. He found his replacement, another Kurdish man who spoke very little English. The first Kurdish man learned to be a line cook. I taught him to be a kitchen manager and eventually he was a gm. The second Kurdish man, though not as dedicated as the first, became a line cook and learned English within 3 or 4 months. He also brought his replacement. This process continued until the day I resigned. Without fail they worked very hard, caused no problems and rarely left my employ.

As of my last day, there were 6 Kurds in my kitchen. They all prayed several times per day and lived in the same neighborhood. They maintained a very traditional home life, but I never saw them look for a handout.
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You're talking apples and oranges when you use Kurds as an example. They're persecuted like the Jews by most Arabs and are by far the most USA friendly culture in the ME.
 
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#72
#72
ClearwaterVol said:
Provide me the stats on this one, big guy. Fact is you can't other than Trump talking points.

I can on the other hand provide you this little tidbit. I was the general manager of a restaurant that sold about 50k per week. When I arrived at the restaurant I had 15 kitchen employees with an average wage of $10.00. There were 4 blacks, 6 whites and 5 hispanics. I hired a Kurdish immigrant to wash dishes hoping he would get me through the weekend. He spoke almost no English. He washed dishes for 2 weeks, he came to me and told me, through an interpreter, that he wanted to be a line cook. I told him that he had to learn the recipes and how to understand requests that would be made verbally. I also told him that he needed to find me a dishwasher.

He came back in less than a week and passed a menu test in English. His spoken English though better, still sucked. Unfortunately, he learned his spoken English from me and every other word was an f bomb. He found his replacement, another Kurdish man who spoke very little English. The first Kurdish man learned to be a line cook. I taught him to be a kitchen manager and eventually he was a gm. The second Kurdish man, though not as dedicated as the first, became a line cook and learned English within 3 or 4 months. He also brought his replacement. This process continued until the day I resigned. Without fail they worked very hard, caused no problems and rarely left my employ.

As of my last day, there were 6 Kurds in my kitchen. They all prayed several times per day and lived in the same neighborhood. They maintained a very traditional home life, but I never saw them look for a handout.
Click to expand...
Trying to paint with that broad brush again I see..
 
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#74
#74
httpsnmsutopiawikispacescomfileviewcapitulatejpg259992078capitulatejpg.jpg
 
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