3-4 Defensive Line Scheme

#1

keenobserver

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#1
With all the talk about our DL as of late, I think it might help to provide some insight on our 3-4 scheme from a coach's perspective.

A 4-3 and 3-4 can function essentially as the same defense vs many offensive sets that are presented by a team.......However, philosophically, here are a few notes on some differences...

DE's in a 3-4= typically physically larger than a 4-3 DE because they're not always responsible for containing a rollout QB or setting the edge...sometimes they're tasked with those particular assignments, but they are also responsible for an A or B GAP on certain calls...

This is why they need to be very big, but also versatile....280-300 lbs is ideal.......the exception would be on passing downs when ideally you will recognize the DL being replaced by guys with specialized pass rushing skills..

NT= they function as a "stump".... the primary goal is to command double teams so ILBs can make tackles.....obviously, they need to be unselfish, relentless, tough, and big enough to not be moved....(think 315-335ish pounds)...

With this being said, I'm confident about our depth at DE this year. With Solomon, Butler, William's, and Middleton at DE's well be as good as anyone in the country at that position.

I don't think the same is true about NT. Gooden would have been servicable....I don't think he would have ever been great..Gooden actually reminds me alot of Kendall Vickers from a few years back.....solid and dependable, but not great....this position is extremely vital in stopping the run in our scheme...like I said, a great NT might not have alot of sacks or tackles, but a good one allows others to do just that..

..we really need a Christian Wilkins type there...the Junk Yard Dog is prototypical., but hes a baby.....I'm hoping Harris and Emerson can see this opportunity and "man up"...Savion William's, although undersized for a 3-4 NT, will regretably be forced to contribute to that position

Let me know what you think
 
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#5

photovol

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#5
With all the talk about our DL as of late, I think it might help to provide some insight on our 3-4 scheme from a coach's perspective.

A 4-3 and 3-4 can function essentially as the same defense on many of offensive sets presented by an offense.......However, philosophically, here are a few notes on some differences...

DE's in a 3-4= typically physically larger than a 4-3 DE because they're not always responsible for containing a rollout QB or setting the edge...sometimes they're tasked with those particular assignments, but they are also responsible for an A or B GAP on certain calls...

This is why they need to be very big, but also versatile....280-300 lbs is ideal.......

NT= they function as a "stump".... the primary goal is to command double teams so ILBs can make tackles.....obviously, they need to be unselfish, relentless, tough, and big enough to not be moved....

With this being said, I'm confident about our depth at DE this year. With Solomon, Butler, William's, and Middleton at DE's well be as good as anyone in the country at that position.

I don't think the same is true about NT. Gooden would have been servicable....I don't think he would have ever been great....we really need a Christian Wilkins type there...the Junk Yard Dog is prototypical., but hes a baby.....I'm hoping Harris, Emerson, Mincy can see this opportunity and "man up"...

Let me know what you think[/QUOTE





Rip em apart Vols
 
#6

bluetick2

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#6
With all the talk about our DL as of late, I think it might help to provide some insight on our 3-4 scheme from a coach's perspective.

A 4-3 and 3-4 can function essentially as the same defense on many of offensive sets presented by an offense.......However, philosophically, here are a few notes on some differences...

DE's in a 3-4= typically physically larger than a 4-3 DE because they're not always responsible for containing a rollout QB or setting the edge...sometimes they're tasked with those particular assignments, but they are also responsible for an A or B GAP on certain calls...

This is why they need to be very big, but also versatile....280-300 lbs is ideal.......

NT= they function as a "stump".... the primary goal is to command double teams so ILBs can make tackles.....obviously, they need to be unselfish, relentless, tough, and big enough to not be moved....

With this being said, I'm confident about our depth at DE this year. With Solomon, Butler, William's, and Middleton at DE's well be as good as anyone in the country at that position.

I don't think the same is true about NT. Gooden would have been servicable....I don't think he would have ever been great....we really need a Christian Wilkins type there...the Junk Yard Dog is prototypical., but hes a baby.....I'm hoping Harris, Emerson, Mincy can see this opportunity and "man up"...

Let me know what you think
Best in the country? Are you high?
 
#8

Roustabout

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#8
With all the talk about our DL as of late, I think it might help to provide some insight on our 3-4 scheme from a coach's perspective.

A 4-3 and 3-4 can function essentially as the same defense on many of offensive sets presented by an offense.......However, philosophically, here are a few notes on some differences...

DE's in a 3-4= typically physically larger than a 4-3 DE because they're not always responsible for containing a rollout QB or setting the edge...sometimes they're tasked with those particular assignments, but they are also responsible for an A or B GAP on certain calls...

This is why they need to be very big, but also versatile....280-300 lbs is ideal.......

NT= they function as a "stump".... the primary goal is to command double teams so ILBs can make tackles.....obviously, they need to be unselfish, relentless, tough, and big enough to not be moved....

With this being said, I'm confident about our depth at DE this year. With Solomon, Butler, William's, and Middleton at DE's well be as good as anyone in the country at that position.

I don't think the same is true about NT. Gooden would have been servicable....I don't think he would have ever been great....we really need a Christian Wilkins type there...the Junk Yard Dog is prototypical., but hes a baby.....I'm hoping Harris, Emerson, Mincy can see this opportunity and "man up"...

Let me know what you think
How could you not mention Simmons at NT?
 
#10

keenobserver

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#10
Best in the country? Are you high?
Not high, just optimistic about an elgible Solomon (yes, I think hes that good)....and Butler.....I think he's gonna surprise everybody....Darel Middleton is 6-7 315, I think he's gonna be great this season...Savion William's was the #1 Juco DL in the country in last years recruiting cycle......Pruitt wanted to play him at DE prior to Goodens injury====dont think my expectations for DE play should be that far fetched?
 
#13

keenobserver

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#13
Thanks bro, you prefer smaller 3-4 DE's?.... Remember DEs in 3-4 are mostly responsible for spilling a ball carrier and not forcing the edge or rushing the passer...
 
#14

RazzBury

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#14
Thanks bro, you prefer smaller 3-4 DE's?.... Remember DEs in 3-4 are mostly responsible for spilling a ball carrier and not forcing the edge or rushing the passer...
Except when we're in 4-2 nickle and they (one of the DEs) are responsible for the edge/rushing. Versatility is key in the Saban/Smart/Pruitt 3-4. Players have to be able to play different techniques.

But in general you are correct. Dudes need to be big enough to 2-gap an OT, and that's tough to do at 260. Thanks for the write up.
 
#17

DefenseWins

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#17
Thanks bro, you prefer smaller 3-4 DE's?.... Remember DEs in 3-4 are mostly responsible for spilling a ball carrier and not forcing the edge or rushing the passer...
Kinda Pruitt does... it was the 2008 season I think whenever Cody was the NT after he left that’s when they started getting a bit lighter to be able to cover more spread offenses because that is what college foot all is now I mean your aren’t off by much so it’s pretty spot on... usually those DE slide in to DT and NT and have their rabbits or Best OLB pass rushers as DE... they have so many sub packages now that they can specialize guys... it’s good though dude. Well done.
 
#18

DiderotsGhost

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#18
With this being said, I'm confident about our depth at DE this year. With Solomon, Butler, William's, and Middleton at DE's well be as good as anyone in the country at that position.
Good write-up on the D-line and difference between 4-3 vs 3-4, but think this particular point is quite a stretch. Right now, D-line looks like the position group where we have the least depth and where we're still far behind the top of the SEC. We lost our 4 best players from last season and that unit was already pretty thin. Unlikely Solomon will be declared eligible IMO, but obviously would be a huge plus if he were.

The hard truth is that we have no proven players on D-line and we just lost the best NT on the team. Even if we find a few good players on DL, we're still going to lack depth (just like we did last season).

I'm willing to wear the "orange colored glasses" right now on just about every other position group (even the O-line), but D-line seems like an obvious weakness to me. Right now, I'm even more optimistic about the O-line (which was terrible last year).
 
#19

keenobserver

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#19
Good write-up on the D-line and difference between 4-3 vs 3-4, but think this particular point is quite a stretch. Right now, D-line looks like the position group where we have the least depth and where we're still far behind the top of the SEC. We lost our 4 best players from last season and that unit was already pretty thin. Unlikely Solomon will be declared eligible IMO, but obviously would be a huge plus if he were.

The hard truth is that we have no proven players on D-line and we just lost the best NT on the team. Even if we find a few good players on DL, we're still going to lack depth (just like we did last season).

I'm willing to wear the "orange colored glasses" right now on just about every other position group (even the O-line), but D-line seems like an obvious weakness to me. Right now, I'm even more optimistic about the O-line (which was terrible last year).
I agree. My optimism was geared more towards our depth at DE in the 3-4. It was also assuming (naively) that Solomon might be elgibe. I rewatched the O/W game and studied him closely. He is the real deal as a 3-4 DE. Humongous, athletic, beats blocks, pushes OL backward, makes plays sideline to sideline. We've got many more body's there now compared to a year ago. Not to mention we've also added 2 of the best Juco's in the country. The DL as a whole, however, is definitely concerning after the loss of Gooden as he was the only NT with experience....looks as if the adjustment will have to be counting on Emerson and Harris (who have 0 experience) or sliding William's inside (hes been working at end)...everyone comments that Simmons is the answer....as talented as he is, hes only practiced at the college level 6 times.....he might help us out...however, we need to be patient with him
 
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#20

XknoxvolsX

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#20
I just happen to like the tried and true and trusted 4-3. Does anyone know if the 3-4 is better suited for the spread if the proper athletes are there?
 
#21

keenobserver

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#21
I just happen to like the tried and true and trusted 4-3. Does anyone know if the 3-4 is better suited for the spread if the proper athletes are there?
They both essentially transition into a 4-2-5 or a 3-2-6 when offenses dont have a TE or are in an empty set. Since these particular formations are more common, the main priority is getting the necessary DBs on the field (nickle/star) and run stopping DL off the field..One of the reasons CJP stock piles DBs is for this very reason. There are ar least 5 DBs on the field most of the time.

Coaches are weird about their philosophies on how to deal with a balanced set (2 backs, 1 TE/1 back, 1 TE, etc).

There are positives and negatives for each...proponents of a 3-4 argue that it's more aggressive and confusing for offenses, in part, because of the "Jack" position. There are some pretty unique things coaches can do with "Jack".....Jack-of-all trades is where it gets its name.Its basically a 4-3 defensive end that is usually one of the better pass rushers on the team.....Darrel Taylor is ours 6-4 255. Lawrence Taylor, the greatest defensive player of all time, IMO, played this position.

4-3 guys criticize the 3-4 because it also requires the "Jack" position to be in pass coverage at times when playing a zone, having to drop to the flat...this is definitely not what they're suited for and sometimes good offenses can make Jack look silly. 4-3 would have a more athletic guy assigned to that task. Think 6-2 225-235.....

In general, 3-4 coaches would argue they are coaching more of an aggressive, attacking style. 4-3 advocates say they can have an agressive attacking approach while playing a safer, more fundamentally sound defense..The rebuttal of 3-4 coaches would be "the 3-4 is safe and fundamentally sound...we just create more turnovers and big plays".......This is the mindset, at least, of the ones I know.
 
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#23

keenobserver

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#23
give me the 4-2-5 with a true rover and call it a day.
Yep. It seems to be commonplace now. Even in the SEC.....There are a few teams that are giving 3-3 stack a look in the PWR 5 conferences, which I find interesting. Smaller schools and many high schools have been using it for years. WVU beat the crap out of us last year basing out of it....slanting linemen and twisting linebackers on almost every play....
 
#25

DefenseWins

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#25
Regardless of the scheme they are all designed to defense against anything that’s thrown at them. It comes down to personel and discipline. If everyone does their job it will be successful.
Sometimes it’s scheme sometimes it’s execution... but there is a reason there has been so many defense through the history of football different body types can do different things...
 

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