25 Signee Limit: Probation For 5 Star Teams?

[BigOrangeVols]

Dumb rule

 

[HuntlandVolinColo]

This may encourage redshirting. It WILL make it more difficult to rebuild a program.

With redshirting, you can roll some guys over. In a healthy program, a good red shirting strategy would allow you to have higher attrition and still maintain 85. But you'd have to build up to it. If everyone were redshirted then you would have 5 full classes to fill 85 scholarships.

Realistically, 15 players could RS each year. That would give you 115 chances to fill your 85 man roster.

I thought redshirts were part of the 85 scholarship group.

Redshirts are also able to go pro after RS Soph year if they have the talent.

 

[volfreak72]

If the NCAA keeps making rules like this, then the FBS schools may opt out and start a new athletic association. I'm surprised they haven't already.

 

[dbarker]

I'm no lawyer...but "FIRST TIME financial aid agreement" or an NLI reads off as transfers and Jucos do not count against the 25. This could be a loophole for us. Both technically have signed NLI or Financial Aid papers at somepoint. Never says anything about a 2nd time signing.

Also this the injury part makes it seem like an ACL tear player in high school doesnt count either.

From NCAA article

Football Bowl Subdivision schools are limited to signing 25 prospective and current student-athletes to a first-time financial aid agreement or a National Letter of Intent. Exceptions exclude current student-athletes who have been enrolled full-time at the school for at least two years and prospective or current student-athletes who suffer an incapacitating injury (effective for recruits who sign after Aug. 1, 2017).[/QUOTE]

 

[VolnJC]

I'm no lawyer...but "FIRST TIME financial aid agreement" or an NLI reads off as transfers and Jucos do not count against the 25. This could be a loophole for us. Both technically have signed NLI or Financial Aid papers at somepoint. Never says anything about a 2nd time signing.

Also this the injury part makes it seem like an ACL tear player in high school doesnt count either.

From NCAA article

Football Bowl Subdivision schools are limited to signing 25 prospective and current student-athletes to a first-time financial aid agreement or a National Letter of Intent. Exceptions exclude current student-athletes who have been enrolled full-time at the school for at least two years and prospective or current student-athletes who suffer an incapacitating injury (effective for recruits who sign after Aug. 1, 2017).

[/QUOTE]

I think it's going to lead to more transfers and more "career ending" injuries for guys who were recruited over

 

[dbarker]

I think it's going to lead to more transfers and more "career ending" injuries for guys who were recruited over[/QUOTE]

Saban is KING of that...they have discharges they can use to continue tuition for players but make them retire. Example: UT I believe has use one in 5 years, Saban does at least 3 a year because there isnt a limit

 

[LWSVOL]

The NCAA has always got to screw with something. They should increase the limit to at least 90 scholarship players, it takes a lot of players to have a good football program. The NCAA is always trying to limit players and the time coaches can spend with them. It's STUPID! GBO!!!

Alabama, Ohio St and Clemson seem to have good, er great, football programs using 85 roster limits

 

[LWSVOL]

I liked it the way it was, and I would like to see a larger scholly limit and roster limit.

But some players wouldn't like it because that would decrease PT. Others would because they'd get enough snaps to show their stuff but fewer opportunities for injury.

higher limits would lead to a lot more transfers. players wouldn't want to sit longer before playing

 

[LWSVOL]

I'm no lawyer...but "FIRST TIME financial aid agreement" or an NLI reads off as transfers and Jucos do not count against the 25. This could be a loophole for us. Both technically have signed NLI or Financial Aid papers at somepoint. Never says anything about a 2nd time signing.

Also this the injury part makes it seem like an ACL tear player in high school doesnt count either.

From NCAA article

Football Bowl Subdivision schools are limited to signing 25 prospective and current student-athletes to a first-time financial aid agreement or a National Letter of Intent. Exceptions exclude current student-athletes who have been enrolled full-time at the school for at least two years and prospective or current student-athletes who suffer an incapacitating injury (effective for recruits who sign after Aug. 1, 2017).

[/QUOTE]

think that would cover Juco's like Kamara but most Jucos don't sign NLIs with FBS school. they go directly from HS to JC

 

[volfan102455]

Alabama, Ohio St and Clemson seem to have good, er great, football programs using 85 roster limits

Yes that would be true for now - but go back and look at the class sizes when the current coach took over.

The first four years at Alabama Saban signed ... drum roll please ... 117. He signed 26 his 5th year with the total being 112 which is 1 more than Butch. And he has actually been 25 and under only 2 times in his 11 years at Alabama. He is +6 too many if the new rule was in effect 4 years ago. From 2007 - 2010, his first 4 years he would be +17 too many.

Urban Meyer's first four years at OSU, he signed 111. He would be +7 too many if the new rule was in effect 4 years ago.

Swinney only signed 99 but he was already at Clemson and took over though with his second class he signed 31. He fares the best from the last 4 years .... only +1

I think some of this is a factor of building depth after a coaching change - which will be impacted by this rule change.

Both Meyer and Saban's initial few signing classes were high. Saban had two classes back to back > 30 (total was 63), Meyer signed 60 over a 2 year period.

Teams that have established depth will probably be okay though they may not get all of whom they want in a year when talent is high.

 

[livefaith]

I was just thinking the exact same. Butch used this all the time to build the roster. Gonna hurt UT.

I don't know how much it hurts us now. But imagine if this rule were in place when Jones took over that dumpster fire of a roster he started with? No way were where we are now.

 

[volfan102455]

The question for Tennessee is whether given the success the last two years coupled with finally getting back on track with players being drafted - will that lead to quality verses quantity of recruits?

 

[volfan102455]

I don't know how much it hurts us now. But imagine if this rule were in place when Jones took over that dumpster fire of a roster he started with? No way were where we are now.

Yes 12 too many were signed his second and third year (based on a 25 limit). If those not signed were the ones that did not pan out and/or transferred - no problem - but there would have been 12 that would have went elsewhere.

 

[volfan102455]

This is going to make it interesting to watch how recruits react - they are going to be fully aware there is a limit of 25 and if they are commit number 26 - someone is going to be left out.

 

[LWSVOL]

Yes that would be true for now - but go back and look at the class sizes when the current coach took over.

The first four years at Alabama Saban signed ... drum roll please ... 117. He signed 26 his 5th year with the total being 112 which is 1 more than Butch. And he has actually been 25 and under only 2 times in his 11 years at Alabama. He is +6 too many if the new rule was in effect 4 years ago. From 2007 - 2010, his first 4 years he would be +17 too many.

Urban Meyer's first four years at OSU, he signed 111. He would be +7 too many if the new rule was in effect 4 years ago.

Swinney only signed 99 but he was already at Clemson and took over though with his second class he signed 31. He fares the best from the last 4 years .... only +1

I think some of this is a factor of building depth after a coaching change - which will be impacted by this rule change.

Both Meyer and Saban's initial few signing classes were high. Saban had two classes back to back > 30 (total was 63), Meyer signed 60 over a 2 year period.

Teams that have established depth will probably be okay though they may not get all of whom they want in a year when talent is high.

sure when building a program your going to over sign and run off players from the previous staff. Almost all coaches do that when going into a program. This rule just eliminates new coaches coming in and running off kids to sign kids of their own. Might take longer to build the roster but the great coaches will still recruit the great players and build their roster to play for championships.

 

[LWSVOL]

Yes 12 too many were signed his second and third year (based on a 25 limit). If those not signed were the ones that did not pan out and/or transferred - no problem - but there would have been 12 that would have went elsewhere.

15 of those signed his first year have already left the roster when they should be going to senior year. 11 have already left from his third class.

so net gain from over signing is not there. He would have been at same place by signing 25, numbers wise.

not including any who left early for NFL or completed eligibility, like junior college players

 

[ImportedVoL]

Could open door for walk ons

 

[sjt18]

This rule is going to be hard on any school that is rebuilding after a coaching change or other event that results with players leaving early.

It is also going to make it harder on transfers looking for scholarships at other schools. If that school has already offered 25, transferring in with a scholarship may be more difficult.

It will make it much more critical to make the right hire or to cut the cord on a bad hire before extensive damage can be done.


Rebuilding will be much more difficult. Attracting a top shelf coach to take on a rebuilding project will be next to impossible.

 

[DeerPark12]

It reads like you were saying only 15 could be lost.

Still haven't seen the other cap listed

That's not a rule, but it works out like that.

If you can only sign 25 per year, and now you can't back count or gray shirt or blue shirt or anything else, then over a four-year period, you can only sign 25 student athletes per year, which is 100. To use all of your scholarships, and have a full 85 player scholarship football team. The math says you can only afford to lose 15 players over a four-year period.

 

[TNnative]

There are always a bunch of jackasses behind the scenes tweaking rules for the sake of tweaking and trying to fix something that isn't really broken.

Regardless, Butch (and 99% of the other D-1 coaches as well) probably needed to do a little more due diligence on players to reduce their attrition, or the jackasses would not have had the ammunition to push this through. Maybe they expect the extra coach they are allowing to be hired will be a psychic. Before they sign their LOI, roll them bones.

 

[TNnative]

Could open door for walk ons

Seems like that door's hinges needs a little extra WD-40 to protect against wear and tear. Not like it's been locked.

 

[volfan102455]

That's not a rule, but it works out like that.

If you can only sign 25 per year, and now you can't back count or gray shirt or blue shirt or anything else, then over a four-year period, you can only sign 25 student athletes per year, which is 100. To use all of your scholarships, and have a full 85 player scholarship football team. The math says you can only afford to lose 15 players over a four-year period.

And the math says in order to sign 25 every year if you have a full 85 players you must lose 25 each year, either to expired eligibility or to the draft or transferring. So the math gets very strange - because if every player you sign stays, you would have to force players off the rooster or you get to a cycle where you are 25, 25, 25, 10, 25, 25, 25, 10, 25, 25, 25, 10.

And when you factor red shirts well it may be more like 25, 25, 10, 10 because the Jr and Soph class ends up with more than 25 in terms of eligibility which means you have to account for them with the SR class or the number you bring in. The greyshirt practice allowed for the natural attrition from the NFL draft and players graduating and deciding to move on.

So if you have a year where that doesn't happen and then the next year you lose more than 25 (due to red shirts, etc.) it will take at least 2 cycles to make it up - assuming you maintain 60 the next cycle.

 

[pimo1]

I think it's going to lead to more transfers and more "career ending" injuries for guys who were recruited over[/QUOTE]actually its meant to prevent exactly that.

 

[jonnon111]

If this hurts big time schools the rule will be changed again.

I do not like artificial efforts to create "parity" if that's part of the rationale. But this SHOULD reward coaches who know how to find talented kids and keep them in the program.

This should be coupled with an allowance for players that transfer in good academic standing.

It will be interesting to see how this impacts the disciplining of players. If you boot a kid off the team for any reason... it could result in a short roster.

Yeah, Bammers are not worried.

I'm still not sure what this new rule even says though :unsure:

 

[DeerPark12]

If the NCAA keeps making rules like this, then the FBS schools may opt out and start a new athletic association. I'm surprised they haven't already.

Just so we're clear on this point, the rule was made by the FBS schools, so your point is moot.

The NCAA isn't some magical group that arbitrarily makes rules. The legislative council is made up of representatives from member schools.

The hard 25 cap was put in place to keep schools from oversigning and leaving kids out to dry because the school signed more players than they have space for.