2016 Election

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#7,484
#7,484
TOP said:
At this point, I wouldn't care if someone shot her point blank. What a moron. I find her offensive and dangerous. She's a train wreck of a person if you ask me. She's Charlie Kelly stupid. Wildcard.
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Well I mostly agree but as I've grown a little older I've mellowed somewhat. I'd rather see her fall down a large flight of steep concrete steps on her own than to be shot. Nobody has to go to jail that way
 
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#7,485
#7,485
hog88 said:
Obviously we have vastly different definitions of what a hero is. But neither of us should be surprised.
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Come back when you actually know his story, and then we can have a discussion. Otherwise, keep spouting nonsense about historical circumstances of which you are completely ignorant; it's your thing.
 
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#7,486
#7,486
mrorange211 said:
Come back when you actually know his story, and then we can have a discussion. Otherwise, keep spouting nonsense about historical circumstances of which you are completely ignorant.
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:eek:lol:

I'm well versed on his story and he is no hero.
 
#7,487
#7,487
Then tell me why he's not a hero.

EDIT: and don't go running to wiki to read a summary. Gimme some actual info that you know on why he is not a hero?
 
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#7,489
#7,489
I think someone who gives up two years of his prime in boxing and millions of dollars to represent the young black men that were being killed in major disproportionate numbers when comparing them to their white peers and thus legitimatizing a movement that we largely celebrate because it was morally right (Vietnam is commonly agreed upon historical to not only be a diplomatic error but a moral one) as a hero. Oh yeah, and he was able to convince an entirely white, besides Marshall, Supreme Court that his religious concerns were valid and more importantly, legitimate.

Yeah man, Ali is a hero, not for what he did in the ring, but for how he sacrificed himself for what he believed as right while costing him the best years of his professional life. Just because you may not believe in his cause, still does not negate the fact that he is a hero to others.


Oh, and it wasn't Farrakhan that recruited Ali, it was Malcolm and Elijah.
 
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#7,490
#7,490
mrorange211 said:
I think someone who gives up two years of his prime in boxing and millions of dollars to represent the young black men that were being killed in major disproportionate numbers when comparing them to their white peers and thus legitimatizing a movement that we largely celebrate because it was morally right (Vietnam is commonly agreed upon historical to not only be a diplomatic error but a moral one) as a hero. Oh yeah, and he was able to convince an entirely white, besides Marshall, Supreme Court that his religious concerns were valid and more importantly, legitimate.

Yeah man, Ali is a hero, not for what he did in the ring, but for how he sacrificed himself for what he believed as right while costing him the best years of his professional life. Just because you may not believe in his cause, still does not negate the fact that he is a hero to others.


Oh, and it wasn't Farrakhan that recruited Ali, it was Malcolm and Elijah.
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Who said that Farrakhan recruited Clay?
 
#7,491
#7,491
You implied that people joined the Nation of Islam just to avoid Vietnam. Guess what? If I were black in 1968, I would have joined as well.
 
#7,492
#7,492
mrorange211 said:
You implied that people joined the Nation of Islam just to avoid Vietnam. Guess what? If I were black in 1968, I would have joined as well.
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I know that Elijah Muhammad, who was Ali's mentor and head of the Nation of Islam, spent time in prison for opting out of the draft during WW II. Apparently, he and Ali liked the country well enough to enjoy the opportunities, but felt like it wasn't their fight.

Everyone should really type in the Nation of Islam and get educated. I am old enough to remember the black supremacist, anti-Semitic group first hand.

Edit: I think that he probably joined the Nation of Islam for the same reason that Farrakhan did. He is a racist. Go to youtube and watch some of his old interviews.
 
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#7,494
#7,494
mrorange211 said:
Then tell me why he's not a hero.

EDIT: and don't go running to wiki to read a summary. Gimme some actual info that you know on why he is not a hero?
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What did he do that makes him a hero? And just for your information I don't consider athletes as heroes.

He ran when called to serve, his decision might have caused the death of another who had to take his place. He used religion as a shield for his own personal safety. I have nothing against him but in no way is he a hero.
 
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#7,495
#7,495
mrorange211 said:
I think someone who gives up two years of his prime in boxing and millions of dollars to represent the young black men that were being killed in major disproportionate numbers when comparing them to their white peers and thus legitimatizing a movement that we largely celebrate because it was morally right (Vietnam is commonly agreed upon historical to not only be a diplomatic error but a moral one) as a hero. Oh yeah, and he was able to convince an entirely white, besides Marshall, Supreme Court that his religious concerns were valid and more importantly, legitimate.

Yeah man, Ali is a hero, not for what he did in the ring, but for how he sacrificed himself for what he believed as right while costing him the best years of his professional life. Just because you may not believe in his cause, still does not negate the fact that he is a hero to others.


Oh, and it wasn't Farrakhan that recruited Ali, it was Malcolm and Elijah.
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You might want to research your claim on casualties since only 10-15% of Vietnam casualties were black.
 
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#7,496
#7,496
hog88 said:
You might want to research your claim on casualties since only 10-15% of Vietnam casualties were black.
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That's not fair. You know, because African-Americans were and still are a minority race in the United States. Thus, 10-15% casualties seems low from an overall perspective but in comparison to the ethnic groups total of makeup of the US population, it was a very large percentage.

Regardless of how one feels about the rhetoric of the Nation of Islam, which is absolutely racist and you won't find me in disagreement here, Ali gave up his prime and millions of dollars to possibly go to prison for something he believed in. Ethically, that makes him a hero.
 
#7,497
#7,497
hog88 said:
You might want to research your claim on casualties since only 10-15% of Vietnam casualties were black.
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That is true. I listed the percentages of casualties by race once before on the forum. In defense of his statement, there was a time early in the first couple of years of the war when blacks were about 20% of casualties because most were in front line combat units for whatever reason. Pres. Johnson ordered more blacks sent to behind the lines duty to counter that.

They wound up with about the same percentage of casualties as they represented in the general population.
 
#7,498
#7,498
mrorange211 said:
That's not fair. You know, because African-Americans were and still are a minority race in the United States. Thus, 10-15% casualties seems low from an overall perspective but in comparison to the ethnic groups total of makeup of the US population, it was a very large percentage.

Regardless of how one feels about the rhetoric of the Nation of Islam, which is absolutely racist and you won't find me in disagreement here, Ali gave up his prime and millions of dollars to possibly go to prison for something he believed in. Ethically, that makes him a hero.
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A lot like the Kentucky county clerk who wouldn't sign off on gay marriage in your eyes I guess?
 
#7,499
#7,499
1972 Grad said:
A lot like the Kentucky county clerk who wouldn't sign off on gay marriage in your eyes I guess?
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Well the difference in this case is she ran for that position to uphold the law, while refusing to uphold a law that she believes is unethical. I admire Ms. Davis and her ethical stance; that takes courage but not like Ali's courage, imo. Ali was drafted against his will to fight in what he viewed as an unethical war and would be imprisoned if he refused. Apples and oranges.
 
#7,500
#7,500
mrorange211 said:
That's not fair. You know, because African-Americans were and still are a minority race in the United States. Thus, 10-15% casualties seems low from an overall perspective but in comparison to the ethnic groups total of makeup of the US population, it was a very large percentage.

Regardless of how one feels about the rhetoric of the Nation of Islam, which is absolutely racist and you won't find me in disagreement here, Ali gave up his prime and millions of dollars to possibly go to prison for something he believed in. Ethically, that makes him a hero.
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I wouldn't say he gave up millions either. Heck in the early 80s the highest earning athlete only made about 5 million in one year. In the 60s he gave up thousands.

You want to consider him a hero, be my guest.
 
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