2016 Election Thread Part Deux

#1,676
#1,676
SuperDave said:
Yes I have no problem with Marx. The problem is what people see socialism and communism as. The problem is people think socialism as government controlled and that's what Stalin called it but that's not what it is. Marx never talked about the state controlling everything. Communism is just state ran capitalism instead of private ran capitalism. Socialism is worker ran. so.. communism-state ran.. capitalist-private ran.. socialism-worker ran. To me.. the worker having the say in how they work is the best.
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To a certain very small point. Workers having too much say is what is driving a lot of our manufacturing out of the country.
 
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#1,678
#1,678
SuperDave said:
In Socialism the more you work the more you get unlike Capitalism where the more you work the more the boss gets. That's what Marx talks about. The state doesn't have a role.. one of the most fundamental goals in socialism is the abolition of the state. All those leaders you mention are not socialist. I'm not aware of any true socialist country ever existing and probably never will.. be too many people controlling their own lives.
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The more you work the more the collective gets. Not all workers are equal. Some workers have great work ethic and some have none at all. Is it acceptable for the workers with very poor work ethics to reap the same rewards as the workers with exceptional work ethic?
 
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#1,679
#1,679
VolnJC said:
Democratic math...Clinton won 1 county in Wisconsin...delegate count Sanders 48 Clinton 38
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Delegates are handed out through percentage of votes, not counties won. The number of counties you win is irrelevant. Hillary may have only won one county, but that county includes wisconsin's largest population. A lot of these less populated counties may get less than 300 total votes. This is similar to the general election when a candidate wins more states than the opposition. The amount of states isn't important, but the population of the state is.
 
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#1,681
#1,681
Persian Vol said:
Delegates are handed out through percentage of votes, not counties won. The number of counties you win is irrelevant. Hillary may have only won one county, but that county includes wisconsin's largest population. A lot of these less populated counties may get less than 300 total votes. This is similar to the general election when a candidate wins more states than the opposition. The amount of states isn't important, but the population of the state is.
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You have to understand, this is GOP weaksauce deflection from the calamity that is their own nominating process. Instead of owning up to the shambles they are in, and dealing with it, their response is rapidly becoming, "Oh yeah? Well... well.. well, Hillary is barely winning the Democratic nomination!"

Its more "Don't look over here, LOOK OVER THERE!" distraction technique.


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#1,682
#1,682
Persian Vol said:
Delegates are handed out through percentage of votes, not counties won. The number of counties you win is irrelevant. Hillary may have only won one county, but that county includes wisconsin's largest population. A lot of these less populated counties may get less than 300 total votes. This is similar to the general election when a candidate wins more states than the opposition. The amount of states isn't important, but the population of the state is.
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It's a national disparity. If you can find a presidential election map by county from 2008 - probably 2012 (but I can't remember for sure), you would assume that the Republicans won. A coast-to-coast sea of red with some blotches of blue. The thing was that the blotches of blue were major cities, and they had the bulk of the population. In words from 2002 George Bush carried 2,439 counties and Gore 674, and Bush lost the popular vote. If it were regional, we'd probably be discussing secession and/or civil war. This kind of disparity is probably worse - more like a systemic cancer. We are a country divided in a way that probably cannot be fixed.
 
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#1,683
#1,683
hog88 said:
To a certain very small point. Workers having too much say is what is driving a lot of our manufacturing out of the country.
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That would be the capitalist going to cheaper labor to make more money. Capitalism can't sustain itself. If socialism had been in place those jobs would have never left. Nobody is going to vote to have their job taken away from themselves.

Under capitalism the worker is getting paid less than they are worth. That's how the system works. That's how the guys at the top make obscene amount of money and how share holders get paid for never doing any work.... by taking from the people doing the work. If you ever feel like you are getting ripped off at work.. well.. you are. If you make $20 an hour the only reason you get that pay is if you produce more than $20 an hour... much more.

That's what capitalism is all about. You have to keep the workers wages below what they are worth and what they produce.
 
#1,684
#1,684
SuperDave said:
That would be the capitalist going to cheaper labor to make more money. Capitalism can't sustain itself. If socialism had been in place those jobs would have never left. Nobody is going to vote to have their job taken away from themselves.

Under capitalism the worker is getting paid less than they are worth. That's how the system works. That's how the guys at the top make obscene amount of money and how share holders get paid for never doing any work.... by taking from the people doing the work. If you ever feel like you are getting ripped off at work.. well.. you are. If you make $20 an hour the only reason you get that pay is if you produce more than $20 an hour... much more.

That's what capitalism is all about. You have to keep the workers wages below what they are worth and what they produce.
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Union members do it all the time.

The rest of your post is, well just ignorance.
 
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#1,685
#1,685
southgatevol said:
The more you work the more the collective gets. Not all workers are equal. Some workers have great work ethic and some have none at all. Is it acceptable for the workers with very poor work ethics to reap the same rewards as the workers with exceptional work ethic?
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You get what you produce.. you produce more you get more... I said that. In a work environment if somebody isn't doing their job then workers can vote to fire them. It's a democratic system.
 
#1,686
#1,686
hog88 said:
Union members do it all the time.

The rest of your post is, well just ignorance.
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Yeah unions vote to have their jobs shipped overseas all the time.. LOL.. omfg.. I need to get you into deprogramming. Why don't you tell me how it works then.. Where does all the money come from to pay the millions to the top and the millions to the dividends. I guess you would rather the top executives and people who never step foot in the workplace to have it instead of you.
 
#1,687
#1,687
SuperDave said:
Yeah unions vote to have their jobs shipped overseas all the time.. LOL.. omfg.. I need to get you into deprogramming. Why don't you tell me how it works then.. Where does all the money come from to pay the millions to the top and the millions to the dividends. I guess you would rather the top executives and people who never step foot in the workplace to have it instead of you.
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This tells me all I need to know. You obviously think executives do not work for a living and Roger the Riveter is more valuable to a corporation than the COO.

What you are talking about exists. They are called communes.
 
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#1,689
#1,689
SuperDave said:
Yeah unions vote to have their jobs shipped overseas all the time.. LOL.. omfg.. I need to get you into deprogramming. Why don't you tell me how it works then.. Where does all the money come from to pay the millions to the top and the millions to the dividends. I guess you would rather the top executives and people who never step foot in the workplace to have it instead of you.
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Economics in One Lesson: The Shortest and Surest Way to Understand Basic Economics https://www.amazon.com/dp/0517548232/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_awd_E0RbxbDP8VV51
 
#1,690
#1,690
hog88 said:
This tells me all I need to know. You obviously think executives do not work for a living and Roger the Riveter is more valuable to a corporation than the COO.

What you are talking about exists. They are called communes.
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You do understand what value is don't you. Their pay doesn't line up with their production. A dividend is pay to somebody who doesn't even work there(most of the time). But that's what capitalism is... you have to produce more than you get compensated for so you can pay the $30 million bonus for the CEO and pay the millions in dividends.
Without Roger your company doesn't have a product. So.. yeah.. I guess he is more important.
 
#1,693
#1,693
SuperDave said:
You do understand what value is don't you. Their pay doesn't line up with their production. A dividend is pay to somebody who doesn't even work there(most of the time). But that's what capitalism is... you have to produce more than you get compensated for so you can pay the $30 million bonus for the CEO and pay the millions in dividends.
Without Roger your company doesn't have a product. So.. yeah.. I guess he is more important.
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No, he isn't.

If you want to get paid for everything you produce, start your own company! Otherwise you are working for a wage from people who invested their money and are expecting a return on that investment.
 
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#1,694
#1,694
SuperDave said:
You do understand what value is don't you. Their pay doesn't line up with their production. A dividend is pay to somebody who doesn't even work there(most of the time). But that's what capitalism is... you have to produce more than you get compensated for so you can pay the $30 million bonus for the CEO and pay the millions in dividends.
Without Roger your company doesn't have a product. So.. yeah.. I guess he is more important.
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Where in your equation do you miss the voluntary nature of the relationship between the employer and the employee? The employee agrees to provide his/her services for an agreed upon salary. It's the employers business, not the employee. They simply work there.
 
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#1,696
#1,696
lawgator1 said:
You have to understand, this is GOP weaksauce deflection from the calamity that is their own nominating process. Instead of owning up to the shambles they are in, and dealing with it, their response is rapidly becoming, "Oh yeah? Well... well.. well, Hillary is barely winning the Democratic nomination!"

Its more "Don't look over here, LOOK OVER THERE!" distraction technique.


giphy.gif
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Of course you conveniently left out that I posted the same map about the GOP right below the Dem one
 
#1,697
#1,697
hog88 said:
No, he isn't.

If you want to get paid for everything you produce, start your own company! Otherwise you are working for a wage from people who invested their money and are expecting a return on that investment.
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That's the problem.. you don't value the person doing the work. Like the old soviet union(instead of going to socialism Stalin kept the power in the government and started state capitalism) but instead of state capitalism its private capitalism. Instead of the state controlling the workforce it's a select few. Same idea just different handlers. Both have no democracy.
 
#1,698
#1,698
SuperDave said:
That's the problem.. you don't value the person doing the work. Like the old soviet union(instead of going to socialism Stalin kept the power in the government and started state capitalism) but instead of state capitalism its private capitalism. Instead of the state controlling the workforce it's a select few. Same idea just different handlers. Both have no democracy.
Click to expand...

I do value my workers, they are paid at or above the market. Look, no successful business can survive without good workers but it also wouldn't survive, can't survive if you give the workers the power to set their own wages.
 
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