$100 A Barrel Oil is on the Way

#776
#776
Oh, one more question... surely, if you have a wind farm supplying power for a subdivision, how much are you going to charge per kW-hr? I'll be damned if I pay 15 cents for unreliable wind energy when the spot market price isn't even at 10 cents/kW-hr. Why should anyone have to pay a premium for unreliable power when they can get connected to their local distributor and get a rate pretty close to what the local utility paid for it wholesale?
 
#777
#777
Rasputin_Vol said:
Oh, one more question... surely, if you have a wind farm supplying power for a subdivision, how much are you going to charge per kW-hr? I'll be damned if I pay 15 cents for unreliable wind energy when the spot market price isn't even at 10 cents/kW-hr. Why should anyone have to pay a premium for unreliable power when they can get connected to their local distributor and get a rate pretty close to what the local utility paid for it wholesale?
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you market the neighborhood under all the green gobbledygook language out there, call it LEEDS certified and charge a premium for doing the favor for the environment. Actually use the lot premium to pay for the windmills. Additionally, the subdivision would be tied to the power grid just as any other and would have the same seamless power, but it wouldn't go out in a storm. The windmill farm owner would be a regulated utility just like all the others and could buy / sell power with the grid just like Florida Power & Light does it.

I don't think you can sell the power at a signicant markup, but you wouldn't need to if charging the high minded a premium for their lots / units.
 
#778
#778
BigPapaVol said:
you market the neighborhood under all the green gobbledygook language out there, call it LEEDS certified and charge a premium for doing the favor for the environment. Actually use the lot premium to pay for the windmills. Additionally, the subdivision would be tied to the power grid just as any other and would have the same seamless power, but it wouldn't go out in a storm. The windmill farm owner would be a regulated utility just like all the others and could buy / sell power with the grid just like Florida Power & Light does it.

I don't think you can sell the power at a signicant markup, but you wouldn't need to if charging the high minded a premium for their lots / units.
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That might be the only way to do it. Find about 75-100 families that are willing to pay a premium to brag to their friends about how environmentally conscious they are.
 
#779
#779
Rasputin_Vol said:
That might be the only way to do it. Find about 75-100 families that are willing to pay a premium to brag to their friends about how environmentally conscious they are.
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you underestimate the size of the looney tunes movement, especially in an around college towns, like your in Knoxville and mine in Fayetteville
 
#780
#780
BigPapaVol said:
you market the neighborhood under all the green gobbledygook language out there, call it LEEDS certified and charge a premium for doing the favor for the environment. Actually use the lot premium to pay for the windmills. Additionally, the subdivision would be tied to the power grid just as any other and would have the same seamless power, but it wouldn't go out in a storm. The windmill farm owner would be a regulated utility just like all the others and could buy / sell power with the grid just like Florida Power & Light does it.

I don't think you can sell the power at a signicant markup, but you wouldn't need to if charging the high minded a premium for their lots / units.
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if you really want long lasting energy in a neighborhood, just go nuke. i saw a show on the discover channel or history channel about this small remote town in alaska used a mini nuke plant. it was probably about 1/10 or 1/20th the size a normal plant, yet it produced enough energy to power the town for years with very little waste. that is the way to go, this windmill mumbo jumbo is just another excuse for taxpayers to waste more of their earning for a bunch of feel good crap.
 
#781
#781
TVA buys your total output of "green power" how ever you produce it (Solar, wind, etc) fo 15 cents per Kw. It is a set price you lock in for 10 years after TVA approves your project. There would have to be a meter on the line and instead of showing how much power you are using, its going backward and showing how much you are putting into the sysem. They might have a remote way of reading your meter and at the end of each month they cut you a check instead of sending you a bill.

TVA: Green Power Switch Generation Partners

TVA sells the "Green Power" in blocks of 150kw for an extra $4 added ontop of your bill to you or who ever wants to feel good, like Al Gore or the hippie down the street.

TVA: Green Power Switch

If you are a car salesman, and someone drives in with a suv and says I want a fuel effiecnt car because I want to help the environment, are you going to show them the old stick shift honda civic with no a\c or are you going to show them the loaded $35k Prius first? And what do you think they will buy?

Also I am sure TVA has Natural Gas Turbines that fire up when demand is at the highest, and I am sure with NatGas at $12 instead of $5 like it was last year, wind power is starting to get competitive.

Also the DOE just came out and said that 20% of US total electricity will come from wind power by 2030.

http://www1.eere.energy.gov/windandhydro/pdfs/41869.pdf

Boone Pickens, one of the greatest oil man of al time just sunk $1 billion into his own wind farm. Its has the feel of a new oil rush...
 
#782
#782
joevol320 said:
if you really want long lasting energy in a neighborhood, just go nuke. i saw a show on the discover channel or history channel about this small remote town in alaska used a mini nuke plant. it was probably about 1/10 or 1/20th the size a normal plant, yet it produced enough energy to power the town for years with very little waste. that is the way to go, this windmill mumbo jumbo is just another excuse for taxpayers to waste more of their earning for a bunch of feel good crap.
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Nuclear Power for Galena, Alaska

haven't found anything more recent than 2005, but a 10 MW unit for a town of 700 is more than plenty.
 
#783
#783
joevol320 said:
if you really want long lasting energy in a neighborhood, just go nuke. i saw a show on the discover channel or history channel about this small remote town in alaska used a mini nuke plant. it was probably about 1/10 or 1/20th the size a normal plant, yet it produced enough energy to power the town for years with very little waste. that is the way to go, this windmill mumbo jumbo is just another excuse for taxpayers to waste more of their earning for a bunch of feel good crap.
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It's pure marketing genius.

Maybe the tort attorneys would just move in themselves and file their own class action suit rather than having to panhandle for average joes from the hood to join in. Should probably give Erin Brockovich the first unit for free as a loss leader to sell the rest.
 
#784
#784
VolsNSkinsFan said:
Also I am sure TVA has Natural Gas Turbines that fire up when demand is at the highest, and I am sure with NatGas at $12 instead of $5 like it was last year, wind power is starting to get competitive.
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They do, and wind power is no where near as competitive. They use the gas turbines for peak power alright, but it is "running generation". Meaning they can instantly get these generators online whenever it is needed. No way you can use a windmill as a running generator on any level... unless you are fortunate enough to have a sustained wind blowing right at the moment you need power. And not to mention, with these wind farms that are out there, you are usually talking about less than 30 MW, while a gas turbine is brought on line and generates as much as 200-500 MW.
 
#786
#786
Rasputin_Vol said:
That might be the only way to do it. Find about 75-100 families that are willing to pay a premium to brag to their friends about how environmentally conscious they are.
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That was the point I was making...I would assume that is how you would market this kind of sub-division...
 
#788
#788
Rasputin_Vol said:
Hmmm... so lets see. Bloomberg today shows that the spot price for electricity is roughly $100/MW-hr ($100/MW-hr is equal to $.10/kW-hr). TVA can usually sell power around $.075-.08/kW-hr to the local distributors and utilities.

Bloomberg.com: Energy Prices

Now you come in and charge KUB, EPB, or whoever your local utility is $.15/kW-hr to buy unreliable power that costs anywhere from 50%-100% more than what they could pay either directly from TVA or on the open market? My question is, who is making up the difference for that extra 5 cents/kW-hr that you are paying? Are the rest of the utility customers going to essentially pay the difference? Will the gov't/TVA pay the difference? In either case, you have a redistribution of wealth based on one group selling power above the market price.

OK, let's go on. Lets say it is a hot day... kind of like today, for example. Energy demand is going to be high (all those air conditioners have to be running). You may then have some power plants that may have to derate and reduce production because of warm water from heat exchange process flowing into the river (EPA mandate). So not only are you going to have high demand, but you are also going to have a decrease in potential energy production. What happens if the wind isn't blowing enough to satisfy the demands of this subdivision that this wind farm is supposed to be generating for? Are you telling me that under these conditions, that you would just venture into the spot energy market and purchase power in that manner? You'll have to pay a transmission cost/mark up to EPB/KUB/local distributor, they in turn will have to purchase their power from a wholesale energy producer (TVA for example) who will have additional mark ups/costs associated with that exchange. Then, TVA may have had to purchase power from AEP or Duke or whoever if they have to compensate for their derated fossil/nuke plants. And of course, you will have to pay the costs associated with the energy exchange between TVA and the other wholesalers. And finally, you will also have to pay market price on the 30 minute or spot market for electricity.

Let's see how that works out... :crazy:
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Comments about this?
 
#789
#789
Rasputin_Vol said:
Comments about this?
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Oh...so you are questioning who is paying for the subsidy to buy back green electricity at $0.15 vs. the going rate for electricity....

I am assuming that there are some federal breaks for power providers supplying green power (which I would assume they get credit for if you are buying it from a provider...or does the original provider get that break...). In that case, all taxpayers are paying for these subsidies. If not, then I assume it must be passed on to the electricity consumers of that utility, no?
 
#790
#790
TennTradition said:
Oh...so you are questioning who is paying for the subsidy to buy back green electricity at $0.15 vs. the going rate for electricity....

I am assuming that there are some federal breaks for power providers supplying green power (which I would assume they get credit for if you are buying it from a provider...or does the original provider get that break...). In that case, all taxpayers are paying for these subsidies. If not, then I assume it must be passed on to the electricity consumers of that utility, no?
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"TVA sells the "Green Power" in blocks of 150kw for an extra $4 added ontop of your bill to you or who ever wants to feel good, like Al Gore or the hippie down the street."

TVA: Green Power Switch

This is how Al Gore defends himself with his huge power demand for his mansion... he pays extra for $4 for each 150 kw blocks of green power. Its $4 extra on your bill. So if your bill is $50 and you enrolled in the "Gren Power Switch" you bill would be and you bought one block it would be $54. If you bought 2 blocks of Green Power you bill would be $58, etc. I am sure Fedex and Alcoa buy many blocks of the "Green Power" so that a select few of their shareholders put the pitchforks down. Also I am sure UT participate along with maybe NASA and other federal govt sites.

Make Orange Green | UT Environmental Policy

Also I bet that they issue TVA Green Bonds or something that is backed by the federal governement to help with funding. But right now all they have is one wind farm near Oak Ridge, a methane plant from a waste water treatment plant in memphis, and about 15 random solar pannels scattered throughout the state.
 
#791
#791
That makes sense but that is only about $0.03/kW-hr, no? Wouldn't that mean that they are paying about $0.12/kW-hr when they buy the power from your green power field, as opposed to buying from some other national utility, selling at $0.10/kW-hr? It seems like a bad business deal unless they something else is helping them out....that is, they are paying $0.12 for electricity they could buy for $0.10. I suppose this is where the federal subsidies may come in? Then again, maybe I misunderstood your post and have my math off...
 
#792
#792
TennTradition said:
That makes sense but that is only about $0.03/kW-hr, no? Wouldn't that mean that they are paying about $0.12/kW-hr when they buy the power from your green power field, as opposed to buying from some other national utility, selling at $0.10/kW-hr? It seems like a bad business deal unless they something else is helping them out....that is, they are paying $0.12 for electricity they could buy for $0.10. I suppose this is where the federal subsidies may come in? Then again, maybe I misunderstood your post and have my math off...
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You are on it... the tax payer is picking up the difference. So if some entrepreneur went out there and put some windmills in the Smokey Mountains, the taxpayer is bank rolling him. He's able to sell power back to the local utility/TVA for above market value... talk about price gouging or obscene profits...

And if you are crazy enough to think that you or some other mom and pop are gonna have the same or more political clout to put up windmills in the Smokey Mountains (having to fight the NIMBY's and the environmentalists), you are sadly mistaken. It will more than likely be a big venture capital investment group doing it in a national park or anywhere close to some Yankee's "mountain views" that he paid $20,000/acre for...
 
#800
#800
My theory is that all of the Liberal Elite Uber-rich types are pouring capital into this speculative oil bubble and are intentionally keeping the price high to help ensure an Obama victory come election time. Even a couple of the big oil CEOs are helping out.

Prove me wrong, I dare ya.
 
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