Ukraine Protests

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#1,977
#1,977
To the one commenter's point in Post article Burhead linked, it sounds like Moscow is using every available measure to provoke Kiev. And once they are sufficiently provoked enough and fire in response, then Putin himself gets to come riding into the Ukraine on his magical unicorn, all in the name of defending ethnic Russians in the region.

Putin had best know what the hell he's doing. This could really bite him in the ass long term.
 
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#1,978
#1,978
Apparently either today or yesterday, there was a Moscow rally against Putin and Russian actions in the Ukraine and Crimea. 50,000 people came out in protest and, unusually, it was not broken up by the government. There was, however, a counterprotest in support of Putin. Only 15,000 in that crowd though.
 
#1,979
#1,979
volprof said:
To the one commenter's point in Post article Burhead linked, it sounds like Moscow is using every available measure to provoke Kiev. And once they are sufficiently provoked enough and fire in response, then Putin himself gets to come riding into the Ukraine on his magical unicorn, all in the name of defending ethnic Russians in the region.

Putin had best know what the hell he's doing. This could really bite him in the ass long term.
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Putin and Russia have more a reason to be involved in Ukrainian politics than Nuland, McCain and Obama do, imo.
 
#1,981
#1,981
Burhead said:
Neither have a reason to be involved.
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Expecting Putin to sit back and allow the Ukraine to join NATO and potentially have ballistics that close to Moscow is tantamount to expecting the US to not be involved if China or Russia did the same in Cuba or Mexico.
 
#1,982
#1,982
Also, it seems very clear to most people that are being honest with themselves that this was a designed coup in the Ukraine that developed during the Olympics in the hopes that Putin would not be able to take the steps needed to nip it in the bud more effectively. But notice as soon as the Olympics were over, Putin shifted focus on to the situation. The West (mainly funded by the US) has clearly been agitating this entire debacle. Russia is now being portrayed as the bad guys for responding to the situation that is occurring in it's back yard.

In the very least, if Ukraine joins NATO, that would jeopardize Russia's ability to use the only warm water port they have in Crimea. It would be like Russia pushing us out of Guantanamo.
 
#1,983
#1,983
Rasputin_Vol said:
Also, it seems very clear to most people that are being honest with themselves that this was a designed coup in the Ukraine that developed during the Olympics in the hopes that Putin would not be able to take the steps needed to nip it in the bud more effectively. But notice as soon as the Olympics were over, Putin shifted focus on to the situation. The West (mainly funded by the US) has clearly been agitating this entire debacle. Russia is now being portrayed as the bad guys for responding to the situation that is occurring in it's back yard.

In the very least, if Ukraine joins NATO, that would jeopardize Russia's ability to use the only warm water port they have in Crimea. It would be like Russia pushing us out of Guantanamo.
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Are you saying they shouldn't be?
 
#1,984
#1,984
A revival of Soviet nostalgia has been gathering force in Russia for several years, from homey Soviet-themed cafes and restaurants to a rehabilitation of Stalin's legacy. The world saw a glimpse of the revived Soviet aesthetic at the opening ceremony of the Sochi Olympics, which presented the Soviet era as a time of avant-garde art and stylish, rebellious youth. But what has been seen in Crimea is no doubt the greatest burst of neo-Soviet politics in the post-Cold War era. Like the American Tea Party, Crimea's neo-Soviets are animated less by a coherent political philosophy than by a gauzy memory of a mythical past of strength, morality and prosperity. “We used to be proud of huge things, huge policies, huge buildings, huge achievements of huge countries,” said Iryna Brunova-Kalisetska, a psychologist in Simferopol who works on peace-building projects in Crimea. “It's much easier to be proud of that than to be proud of your own achievements.”
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In Crimea, WWII looms large as Russians return, fueling Soviet nostalgia | Al Jazeera America
 
#1,985
#1,985
25 masked men, with silenced automatic rifles have entered the journalist's hotel in Simferopol. People are being searched, rooms are being searched, and several have been detained so far.

Story developing...
 
#1,986
#1,986
UTVOLFAN said:
Are you saying they shouldn't be?
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Read the rest of the sentence.

...for responding to the situation that is occurring in it's back yard.
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I gave you the example of Cuba and Mexico for the US. If it's good enough for us, it's good enough for them to be involved in affairs in the circle of influence.

My question is, why are we involved?
 
#1,988
#1,988
“In Bosnia, you have a nonfunctioning state, a state that is in permanent crisis,” said Milan Nic, Executive Director of the Central European Policy Institute in Bratislava. “Without strong central institutions, you can slow down any kind of European integration.” Such an outcome in Ukraine would jibe neatly with Moscow’s goals, according to a number of analysts.

With a nod to Bosnia, Russia might envision a Russian-speaking Eastern Ukraine established as a separate entity from the pro-European, Ukrainian-speaking West — with the capital, Kiev, floating in the middle. Like the Republika Srpska in relation to Belgrade, Eastern Ukraine could forge closer economic, political, and linguistic ties to Mother Russia.

A forcibly federalized Ukraine would effectively be prevented from forming a coherent foreign policy that could veer too strongly in any one direction, which has been Bosnia’s experience. The revolutionary, pro-European sentiments of the country’s Western half would be thwarted by the “geopolitical ambiguity” of the state as a whole. It would mean lukewarm ties with Europe and NATO and a satisfied Kremlin.
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Could Ukraine be another Bosnia? | Al Jazeera America

Very interesting read on whether or not Putin is pursuing a policy of "land grabbing" or of "national re-building."

And Serbs! If they're not killing Croats, Bosnians, Albanians, Kosovoans, et al., they're now ready to help their Russian comrades slaughter ethnic Ukrainians and Tatars in Crimea as well, should the need arise. Those ****ers! However, I do admire any language capable of putting five consonants together.
 
#1,989
#1,989
UTVOLFAN said:
25 masked men, with silenced automatic rifles have entered the journalist's hotel in Simferopol. People are being searched, rooms are being searched, and several have been detained so far.

Story developing...
Click to expand...

Ah, good ole' Russian governance. It really is a thing of beauty. If you just shut up all dissent, then dissent does not exist. It's like here at home with people who think if they just shut up gay people, then gay people don't exist. Beautiful!
 
#1,992
#1,992
Rasputin_Vol said:
Read the rest of the sentence.



I gave you the example of Cuba and Mexico for the US. If it's good enough for us, it's good enough for them to be involved in affairs in the circle of influence.

My question is, why are we involved?
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It's history.

Helsinki Final Act, 1975.

Every European country except Albania signed the Act, in addition to the United States and Canada.

In addition the United States and Britain “reaffirmed” their commitment to protect Ukraine’s borders in exchange for the nation giving up its nuclear weapons in a little-known agreement known as the “Budapest Memorandum signed by former President Bill Clinton in 1994.

Russia is violating those.
 
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#1,999
#1,999
How many people dying will it require for me to get the last laugh on you guys? Let's just hope they all die soon, so that I can have my laugh while this conversation is still fresh on our minds.
 
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#2,000
#2,000
volprof said:
Opinion: 5 lessons for a new Cold War - CNN.com
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Hmm, don't agree with this one:

3. If you are a vulnerable state, you may regret surrendering nuclear weapons.

I don't think the Ukraine would have gone to nuclear arms over Russia moving into the Crimea. If anything, the Russians would have intervened during the riots in Kiev to secure said stockpiles and delivery systems.

Nuclear weapons would not have changed what happened. In fact, it might have made a Russian intervention happen earlier as well as turning world opinion against the pro-EU protesters. Because if the world media started talking about how the Ukraine's nuclear weapons were a security risk, you would see world opinion go completely in the opposite direction and a call for intervention to secure said weapons.


volprof said:
Opinion: Five myths about the Ukraine crisis - CNN.com
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This one? Can't say I agree with most of his opinion. But it's his opinion, so there is that.

ETA: Cool, I can lay claim to post #2000 in this thread.
 
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