Official Global Warming thread (merged)

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The phase relation between atmospheric carbon dioxide and global temperature
Ole Humluma, b,
Kjell Stordahlc,
Jan-Erik Solheimd
a Department of Geosciences, University of Oslo, P.O. Box 1047 Blindern, N-0316 Oslo, Norway
b Department of Geology, University Centre in Svalbard (UNIS), P.O. Box 156, N-9171 Longyearbyen, Svalbard, Norway
c Telenor Norway, Finance, N-1331 Fornebu, Norway
d Department of Physics and Technology, University of Tromsø, N-9037 Tromsø, Norway
http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.gloplacha.2012.08.008,





Abstract

Using data series on atmospheric carbon dioxide and global temperatures we investigate the phase relation (leads/lags) between these for the period January 1980 to December 2011. Ice cores show atmospheric CO2 variations to lag behind atmospheric temperature changes on a century to millennium scale, but modern temperature is expected to lag changes in atmospheric CO2, as the atmospheric temperature increase since about 1975 generally is assumed to be caused by the modern increase in CO2. In our analysis we use eight well-known datasets; 1) globally averaged well-mixed marine boundary layer CO2 data, 2) HadCRUT3 surface air temperature data, 3) GISS surface air temperature data, 4) NCDC surface air temperature data, 5) HadSST2 sea surface data, 6) UAH lower troposphere temperature data series, 7) CDIAC data on release of anthropogene CO2, and 8) GWP data on volcanic eruptions. Annual cycles are present in all datasets except 7) and 8), and to remove the influence of these we analyze 12-month averaged data. We find a high degree of co-variation between all data series except 7) and 8), but with changes in CO2 always lagging changes in temperature. The maximum positive correlation between CO2 and temperature is found for CO2 lagging 11–12 months in relation to global sea surface temperature, 9.5-10 months to global surface air temperature, and about 9 months to global lower troposphere temperature. The correlation between changes in ocean temperatures and atmospheric CO2 is high, but do not explain all observed changes.



Highlights


► The overall global temperature change sequence of events appears to be from 1) the ocean surface to 2) the land surface to 3) the lower troposphere. ► Changes in global atmospheric CO2 are lagging about 11–12 months behind changes in global sea surface temperature. ► Changes in global atmospheric CO2 are lagging 9.5-10 months behind changes in global air surface temperature. ► Changes in global atmospheric CO2 are lagging about 9 months behind changes in global lower troposphere temperature. ► Changes in ocean temperatures appear to explain a substantial part of the observed changes in atmospheric CO2 since January 1980. ► CO2 released from use of fossil fuels have little influence on the observed changes in the amount of atmospheric CO2, and changes in atmospheric CO2 are not tracking changes in human emissions.
 
Let's see all the data...not just the last 30-40 yrs.

How significant is the increase in temperature compared to 100, 200, 500, 2000, 10000, 30000 years ago?

What is the definitive proof that fossil fuels / greenhouse gases is the main contributing factor?

I am a skeptic, but that doesn't make me stupid or ignorant.

AJ, CO2 isn't even forcing temperature. Its the other way around. That's why the pause is more than a pause.
 
1. With no answer. That's been established.

2. Makes no sense. You can only give a vague representative sample of a bubble of air in an Antarctic ice core that can represent only a large amount of time. Yet, y'all get upset over a Hurricane or one winter from the present.

I don't give two craps is AGW is real. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. The evidence is laughable at best. Maybe it means something, maybe not. I'm concerned with what you people want to do about it. Taxing me even more to throw at companies that donate to particular political parties only to waste said funds doing nothing isn't going to help. Especially if it's only a couple of countries that do it. Would it be great to live in a pollution-free world? Absolutely. Is it feasible within the next thousands of years? Hell no. Until you come up with real, feasible non-intrusive ideas, keep it to yourself.

1. I directly and fully answered your question. Either you're ignoring it or you're lacking reading comprehension

2. Large quantities of time are not represented by a single air bubble. Likewise climate scientists aren't concerned about a single hurricane or winter. The evidence has been mounting for some 250 years.

I'm sorry AGW doesn't fit your political ideology but we don't have 1000 years to wait. I don't want to raise taxes either (libertarian here) but a carbon tax has broad bipartisan support, even from big oil. If you have a better idea on how to curb CO2 emissions let's hear it
 
AJ, CO2 isn't even forcing temperature. Its the other way around. That's why the pause is more than a pause.

That's the same paper containing the figure we discussed a few pages back. Do you still not understand what's wrong with it?

If temperature is forcing CO2, why hasn't %CO2 paused?

hss2012fig1-12-FALSEFALSEFALSE.png
 
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1. I directly and fully answered your question. Either you're ignoring it or you're lacking reading comprehension

2. Large quantities of time are not represented by a single air bubble. Likewise climate scientists aren't concerned about a single hurricane or winter. The evidence has been mounting for some 250 years.

I'm sorry AGW doesn't fit your political ideology but we don't have 1000 years to wait. I don't want to raise taxes either (libertarian here) but a carbon tax has broad bipartisan support, even from big oil. If you have a better idea on how to curb CO2 emissions let's hear it

What about China and everyone else?

Addressing/fixing a fraction of 19% doesn't solve anything.

chart-image-105657482996-site_display_607-global-co2-emissions-by-country.png
 
Let's see all the data...not just the last 30-40 yrs.

How significant is the increase in temperature compared to 100, 200, 500, 2000, 10000, 30000 years ago?

What is the definitive proof that fossil fuels / greenhouse gases is the main contributing factor?

I am a skeptic, but that doesn't make me stupid or ignorant.

Honest healthy skepticism is encouraged :hi:

Your questions have all been discussed in this thread ad nauseam, but I'll give you a recap. I can go into details about any specifics you like.

The temperature increase is very significant. Climate is cyclical (see Milankovitch cycles): our current interglacial temperature peaked ~9000 years ago and since the planet has been slowly cooling. Soon we should be entering the next ice age. Instead, temperatures diverged from the natural cycle (starting ~150 years ago) and have increased 1.5 C. At the rate CO2 is increasing, scientists predict another 3-4.5 C rise by 2100. For reference, the last ice age was only 4-5 C colder than today. So yes, the temperature increase is significant. I'll be happy to show you figures of temperature on whatever timescale you like (up to 800,000 years).

We know fossil fuels are the main contributing factor because we can measure the radiation leaving Earth's surface and Earth's atmosphere and, taking the difference, we can tell precisely what gases are trapping radiation and how much. This subject is called spectroscopy.

We can also tell that the increase in CO2 is due to burning fossil fuels because atmospheric carbon and carbon locked up in coal and gas have different numbers of neutrons. The change in atmospheric CO2 isotope ratios is also precisely measurable. This field is called stable isotope geochemistry.

There are many more independent measurements which confirm predictions made by AGW. This pamphlet recently published by the US National Academy of Sciences and UK's Royal Society may address some of your concerns. Feel free to ask any follow up questions
 
Great article by Delingpole of The Telegraph:


Tuesday 4 March 2014 | Blog Feed | All feeds

James Delingpole

James Delingpole is a writer, journalist and broadcaster who is right about everything. He is the author of numerous fantastically entertaining books, including his most recent work Watermelons: How the Environmentalists are Killing the Planet, Destroying the Economy and Stealing Your Children's Future, also available in the US, and in Australia as Killing the Earth to Save It. His website is James Delingpole | Journalist, Author and Broadcaster.





If you still believe in 'climate change' read this…




By James Delingpole Environment Last updated: September 3rd, 2013

2981 Comments Comment on this article



Put him in the Special Punishment wing. He's earned it

If any business were to submit a prospectus as patently false and deliberately dishonest as the ones used to advance the cause of the global warming industry, its directors would all be in prison by now. (C Jeff Randall)

Does that mean Ed Davey should have followed Chris Huhne into the slammer for his claim to Andrew Neil on BBC Daily Politics the other day that in "a recent analysis of 12,000 climate papers…of the scientists who expressed a view 97 per cent said that climate change was happening and that it was human-made activity."?

Not quite, unfortunately, because nothing Davey has said there is technically untrue. A better candidate for prison, actually, would be whoever tweets under the name @BarackObama. When he Tweeted: "Ninety-seven percent of scientists agree: #climate change is real, man-made and dangerous" he was promulgating a demonstrable untruth.

No one has ever doubted that climate changes.

Pretty much everyone – probably more than 97 per cent, even – agrees that there is a degree of anthropogenic input, even it's just the barely measurable contribution of beef cattle farts or the heat produced by cities.

But the dangerous bit? No one has come even close to demonstrating it, there is no reliable evidence for it, and very few scientists – certainly far, far fewer than 97 per cent of them – would ever stake their reputations on such a tendentious claim.

The background to all this – and the "97 per cent of climate scientists say…." meme – is expertly covered in a new paper for the Global Warming Policy Foundation by Andrew Montford.

In a sane world it wouldn't have needed writing. An obscure green political activist called John Cook and a few of his eco-cronies produced a pseudo-scientific paper so riddled with flaws that it ought to have been tossed straight in the bin. Instead, it was bigged up by a compliant mainstream media, a desperate and propaganda-hungry green industry, and by the US President as a vitally significant meta-analysis offering indisputable proof of the scientific "consensus" on "climate change."

Montford concludes:


The consensus as described by the survey is virtually meaningless and tells us nothing about the current state of scientific opinion beyond the trivial observation that carbon dioxide is a greenhouse gas and that human activities have warmed the planet to some unspecified extent. The survey methodology therefore fails to address the key points that are in dispute in the global warming debate."

So how do the bastards go on getting away with it? Jamie Whyte provides a fascinating, erudite and original answer in his new paper for the Institute of Economic Affairs – Quack Policy.

(And for a summary of the lefty reaction so far, see here)

In it, he exposes the "rhetorical bluster" used, inter alia, by the climate alarmist establishment to make their case sound stronger and more trustworthily "scientific" than it really is. He is especially sceptical of those who try to advance their cause with the weasel phrase "evidence-based" policy.


"They are partial in their accounting for costs and benefits; they ignore substitution effects; they pretend that mathematical precision is evidence; they confound risk and uncertainty; and they exaggerate the certainty warranted by the available evidence. Having committed such errors, they obscure them with grandiose irrelevancies about peer-reviewed publication, consensus among scientists and the proclamations of official scientific committees."

For Whyte – an economist as well as a philosopher – the fundamental flaw in the warmist argument is its failure to a use a realistic discount rate.

None of the projected disastrous effects of climate change exists in the present but only in an imaginary future (which may never come to pass: these are only unverifiable computer model "projections", remember). So we ought, when considering our expensive prevention/mitigation policies, factor in the key point that "future generations" are going to be richer than we are and therefore better able to pay for any problems that "climate change" may cause them.

But the alarmists cannot afford to admit this, for to do so would be fatally to weaken their case that the time for action is now and that any delay will be fatal. Their emphasis on their imminence of catastrophe is designed to preclude rational analysis, so as to railroad through policies before more temperate heads notice their flaws.

In order to give this catastrophism more credibility, alarmists are wont to appeal to the authority of the "consensus.' (Which is why, of course, the warmist establishment made such a meal of the Cook paper above).

Again, Whyte finds a fatal flaw in this line of argument:


The climate models that predict AGW have not been tested and they are not mere entailments of well-known physics and chemistry. Why, then, do scientists have such high levels of confidence in them? In other words, if a scientific consensus really does exist, this is what needs to be explained. It cannot explain itself, nor justify itself.

Good point. And I'd love to hear a convincing answer to this from the numerous well-known scientists who have used their prestige or their celebrity or their presumed expertise to help push the great climate change scare. I'm thinking here of everyone from Lord Winston and Sir Paul Nurse to science-background celebs such as Ben Goldacre, Simon Singh and Dara O'Briain, all of whom on various occasions have purported to know that "climate change" is a major problem because apparently there is some kind of "consensus" among scientists.

Whyte elucidates further:




We do not have confidence in the predictions of physics because physicists say we should. Rather, our confidence is founded on the extraordinary success of physics. Physical theory does not merely allow us to anticipate the existence and location of previously unobserved planets or the speed at which little trolleys will travel across school science laboratories; it allows us to build televisions, space ships, microwave ovens and so on. Physicists inherit their credibility from physics, not vice versa. That is why their special credibility is restricted to physicists.

Those who build climate models are scientists. But their branch of science has no success with which to impress us, neither in its predictions nor in its applications. In the absence of such success, their assertions of confidence should carry little weight. Especially when such assertions are predictable even in the absence of proper grounds for confidence.

Whyte is right. The idea that the catastrophic climate change industry can derive any authority from real science is an insult to real science.

By way of further confirmation, you might care to read this superb recent essay from Dr Richard Lindzen, which you can reach via Watts Up With That?. He argues that mainstream climate science is currently akin to Lysenkoism and that its adherents have more in common with religious zealots than scrupulous seekers-after-truth.


“Global climate alarmism has been costly to society, and it has the potential to be vastly more costly. It has also been damaging to science, as scientists adjust both data and even theory to accommodate politically correct positions. How can one escape from the Iron Triangle when it produces flawed science that is immensely influential and is forcing catastrophic public policy?”

Right, snivelling, mendacious, corrupt, shrivelled-and-syphilitic-membered, pseudo-scientific, rabid climate trolls. Let's be hearing your pitiful excuses….
 
Nobody is arguing that only the US needs to curb emissions. It's a global political challenge

My problem is with the way the problem is being addressed.

New U.S. laws/regulations (clean coal, etc...) could be disastrous for our economy while negating any intended benefit.


US Energy costs ↑↑↑
US cost of goods ↑↑↑
US manufacturing Jobs ↓↓↓

China / Overseas Exports to US ↑↑↑
China / Overseas manufacturing Jobs ↑↑↑
China / Overseas % of Global CO2 emissions ↑↑↑
China / Overseas total CO2 Emissions ↑↑↑
 

Yawn. Typical AGW smear piece by the telegraph citing the usual denialist thinktanks. Funny piece of scientific consensus denialism. Here is the peer-reviewed Cook et al. 2013 paper your article criticizes. Read it yourself. They arrived at the 97%+ figure by examing ALL the relevant literature, and then let authors self-report their position as well. Their results are consistent with other independent studies that arrived at the exact same conclusion: there is an overwhelming consensus in the scientific community that humans are causing global warming.

Here's a post specifically addressing this variety of denialism:

The Cook et al. (2013) 97% consensus result is robust
 
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My problem is with the way the problem is being addressed.

New U.S. laws/regulations (clean coal, etc...) could be disastrous for our economy while negating any intended benefit.


US Energy costs ↑↑↑
US cost of goods ↑↑↑
US manufacturing Jobs ↓↓↓

China / Overseas Exports to US ↑↑↑
China / Overseas manufacturing Jobs ↑↑↑
China / Overseas % of Global CO2 emissions ↑↑↑
China / Overseas total CO2 Emissions ↑↑↑

That's certainly not the only problem with the way the climate change is being addressed. But there's a fundamental flaw with economic objections to acting on climate change -- they're shortsighted. What will hurt the economy more: flooded coastal cities (meaning refugees), extensive drought, food and water shortages, more extreme weather, and foreign political instability, or raising the emissions standards for cars and industries? Many people and businesses are already feeling the negative effects of climate change. I already brought up the reinsurance industry. Here's some more examples:

Industry Awakens to Threat of Climate Change

“Increased droughts, more unpredictable variability, 100-year floods every two years,” said Jeffrey Seabright, Coke’s vice president for environment and water resources, listing the problems that he said were also disrupting the company’s supply of sugar cane and sugar beets, as well as citrus for its fruit juices. “When we look at our most essential ingredients, we see those events as threats.” Coke reflects a growing view among American business leaders and mainstream economists who see global warming as a force that contributes to lower gross domestic products, higher food and commodity costs, broken supply chains and increased financial risk. Their position is at striking odds with the longstanding argument, advanced by the coal industry and others, that policies to curb carbon emissions are more economically harmful than the impact of climate change."

"Nike, which has more than 700 factories in 49 countries, many in Southeast Asia, is also speaking out because of extreme weather that is disrupting its supply chain. In 2008, floods temporarily shut down four Nike factories in Thailand, and the company remains concerned about rising droughts in regions that produce cotton, which the company uses in its athletic clothes. “That puts less cotton on the market, the price goes up, and you have market volatility,” said Hannah Jones, the company’s vice president for sustainability and innovation. Nike has already reported the impact of climate change on water supplies on its financial risk disclosure forms to the Securities and Exchange Commission."

"Although many Republicans oppose the idea of a price or tax on carbon pollution, some conservative economists endorse the idea. Among them are Arthur B. Laffer, senior economic adviser to President Ronald Reagan; the Harvard economist N. Gregory Mankiw, who was economic adviser to Mitt Romney’s presidential campaign; and Douglas Holtz-Eakin, the head of the American Action Forum, a conservative think tank, and an economic adviser to the 2008 presidential campaign of Senator John McCain, the Arizona Republican.

“There’s no question that if we get substantial changes in atmospheric temperatures, as all the evidence suggests, that it’s going to contribute to sea-level rise,” Mr. Holtz-Eakin said. “There will be agriculture and economic effects — it’s inescapable.” He added, “I’d be shocked if people supported anything other than a carbon tax — that’s how economists think about it.”

Facing the Facts: Climate Change Is Bad For Business

"A recent study by the Carbon Disclosure Project shows that at least 70% of major businesses are concerned about the threats that climate change poses to their companies. 51% of the businesses contacted for the study said that climate change, specifically heavy rains and droughts, has already had a very large impact on operations, always in a negative way.

These aren’t mom and pop operations either. Massive corporations like Wal-Mart, Dell Computers, and L’Oreal are among those who have reported negative economic impacts from climate change related disasters. "

Climate Denial Industry Costs Us $500 Billion a Year

The International Energy Agency (IEA) has announced in its latest World Energy Outlook that every year of delayed action to address climate change will add $500 Billion to the price tag of saving the planet.
 
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Report: DC's green-approved buildings using more energy | The Daily Caller

In its own report released with the data, even the city’s Department of Environment acknowledged the concerns raised by the “dependence on a third-party organization, over which the government has no oversight, to set the District’s green building standards.” But while it understands the risks, the D.C. government continues to mandate the ratings for public buildings — and get cash from the program.

The city has collected $5.2 million in permit fees from the program since 2010.
 
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Man made Global Warming has become a religion in itself.

1- People believe in something they can't see, prove or understand
2- They have faith in "scientist" who are paid to come to certain conclusions
3- They don't give a dam about the damage they do or who they hurt as long as it advances their agenda
 
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ca·tas·tro·phekəˈtastrəfē/an event causing great and often sudden damage or suffering; a disaster."a national economic catastrophe"synonyms:disaster,*calamity,*cataclysm,*holocaust,*havoc,*ruin,*ruination,*tragedy;

QUOTE=BartW;9938330]Why do you keep asking dumb questions after I've already answered them?

Is this the response you were looking for?

Manbearpig.jpg
[/QUOTE]

Why are you being a jerk?

You offer this compelling case for climate change. I find your information convincing. You call it a global catastrophe. I ask you how the catastrophe will look. You provide info about ocean acidity, rising sea levels, exctinctions, food and water shortages. I comprehend the alarm about those things but fail to see the catastrophe. You call me out for asking dumb questions. Is this the way I can expect all scientist to react to a layman asking questions? I posted the definition of catastrophe because I may be using the word incorrectly. To me, a catastrophe on a global level is something from which we cannot recover.
 
Bart - If the world stopped using carbon based energy today, cold turkey, would AGW stop? Would it go away and things go back to "normal"? How long would it take for the damage done to rectify itself?
 
Bart - If the world stopped using carbon based energy today, cold turkey, would AGW stop? Would it go away and things go back to "normal"? How long would it take for the damage done to rectify itself?

i believe there is ~100 year lag time between our CO2 emissions and the full effects, which is part of what concerns scientists, is that we are not even seeing the full impact yet and there are measurable differences.
 
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i believe there is ~100 year lag time between our CO2 emissions and the full effects, which is part of what concerns scientists, is that we are not even seeing the full impact yet and there are measurable differences.

Z, the problem is it is the other way around. There is a historical lag between temperature and then CO2. Not the other way around. They are attempting to rewrite history.
 
Z, the problem is it is the other way around. There is a historical lag between temperature and then CO2. Not the other way around. They are attempting to rewrite history.

hmmm could be. not my field of expertise, but my understanding was always that CO2 increased and then anywhere between 40-100 years later, temperature increased and that the ocean and other carbon reservoirs acted as a buffer to delay the effects of temperature. obviously i could be mistaken since my research revolves around earthquakes and not the atmosphere lol and it has been a while for me since ive read up on climate related things
 
Bart - If the world stopped using carbon based energy today, cold turkey, would AGW stop? Would it go away and things go back to "normal"? How long would it take for the damage done to rectify itself?

Hog,
I started debating Bart and TT awhile back on this issue. Of course they are the scientists and they have a lot more time and (mis)information at their fingertips. Hell, most of us are trying to make it in the free market place. They kept throwing charts and stuff out there and it all looks compelling on the face of it. But, the more you delve into it you find most of it is misinformation. The more I've delved into this the more I realized that CO2 has very little affect on temperature at all. They keep constructing these models with CO2 and water as only a positive feedback but in reality CO2 has very little forcing and water is the most dominant green house gas. Have you noticed none of their models work-it is because their premise is flawed. If you think about it the other way around couldn't work because we wouldn't be here if it did. If a change in CO2 caused a change in temperature that would be a positive feedback loop and be unstable. The planet doesn't work that way and we wouldn't be here if it did. CO2 and the other green house gases are small actors. There has been no warming for the last 16 to 17 years now with CO2 continuing to increase. The reason is because CO2 lags temperature and not the other way around. CO2 lags temperature on all time scales and CO2 has little to no effect on temperature. Most of the CO2 is produced naturally by the oceans and as ocean surface temperatures increase they produce more CO2. They are desperate now because they view this as a last ditch effort to try to railroad policy and laws before their "scheme" becomes apparent. (It has already become apparent to many of us.)
 
ca·tas·tro·phekəˈtastrəfē/an event causing great and often sudden damage or suffering; a disaster."a national economic catastrophe"synonyms:disaster,*calamity,*cataclysm,*holocaust,*havoc,*ruin,*ruination,*tragedy;

QUOTE=BartW;9938330]Why do you keep asking dumb questions after I've already answered them?

Is this the response you were looking for?

Manbearpig.jpg

Why are you being a jerk?

You offer this compelling case for climate change. I find your information convincing. You call it a global catastrophe. I ask you how the catastrophe will look. You provide info about ocean acidity, rising sea levels, exctinctions, food and water shortages. I comprehend the alarm about those things but fail to see the catastrophe. You call me out for asking dumb questions. Is this the way I can expect all scientist to react to a layman asking questions? I posted the definition of catastrophe because I may be using the word incorrectly. To me, a catastrophe on a global level is something from which we cannot recover.[/QUOTE]

Not only is he a jerk but like many liberals he is a sociopath. The sociopaths dominate politics and academia now.
 
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Why are you being a jerk?

You offer this compelling case for climate change. I find your information convincing. You call it a global catastrophe. I ask you how the catastrophe will look. You provide info about ocean acidity, rising sea levels, exctinctions, food and water shortages. I comprehend the alarm about those things but fail to see the catastrophe. You call me out for asking dumb questions. Is this the way I can expect all scientist to react to a layman asking questions? I posted the definition of catastrophe because I may be using the word incorrectly. To me, a catastrophe on a global level is something from which we cannot recover.

Lighten up Francis, everyone loves a manbearpig reference. It's hard to tell who's being earnest, VN has throroughly busted my sarcasm meter. Global warming is something we can recover from but it will take the planet hundreds of years to equilibrate. As zreeves pointed out, even if we stopped cold turkey today we're already committed to some warming for the rest of the century.

Just how much of a catastrophe it will be depends on how long we wait to take action. The more CO2 we emit, the more the planet will warm, and the longer it will take to recover. If we continue business as usual for the rest of the 21st century lots of people will be displaced or die, global economy will collapse, and there will be political unrest around the world. That, by my dictionary, is a catastrophe
 
Z, the problem is it is the other way around. There is a historical lag between temperature and then CO2. Not the other way around. They are attempting to rewrite history.
Hog,
I started debating Bart and TT awhile back on this issue. Of course they are the scientists and they have a lot more time and (mis)information at their fingertips. Hell, most of us are trying to make it in the free market place. They kept throwing charts and stuff out there and it all looks compelling on the face of it. But, the more you delve into it you find most of it is misinformation. The more I've delved into this the more I realized that CO2 has very little affect on temperature at all. They keep constructing these models with CO2 and water as only a positive feedback but in reality CO2 has very little forcing and water is the most dominant green house gas. Have you noticed none of their models work-it is because their premise is flawed. If you think about it the other way around couldn't work because we wouldn't be here if it did. If a change in CO2 caused a change in temperature that would be a positive feedback loop and be unstable. The planet doesn't work that way and we wouldn't be here if it did. CO2 and the other green house gases are small actors. There has been no warming for the last 16 to 17 years now with CO2 continuing to increase. The reason is because CO2 lags temperature and not the other way around. CO2 lags temperature on all time scales and CO2 has little to no effect on temperature. Most of the CO2 is produced naturally by the oceans and as ocean surface temperatures increase they produce more CO2. They are desperate now because they view this as a last ditch effort to try to railroad policy and laws before their "scheme" becomes apparent. (It has already become apparent to many of us.)

I’ve shown you why you’re wrong about the phase relation between CO2 and T from several different angles, yet you continue to ignore the facts and sprew this nonsense. Heck, you don’t even engage in conversation. Deny deny deny. This is the line between skeptic and denialist. A skeptic can actually be swayed by evidence. A skeptic will engage in conversation about the evidence. All you do is move from one denialist talking point to the next.

The IR properties of CO2 and resulting greenhouse effect are scientific fact and not up for debate. If you reject that, you’re a denier.

Global surface temperature measurements are robust and have been replicated using multiple methodologies by multiple independent teams composed of both climate realists and “skeptics”. If you continue to believe that the surface temperature measurements are corrupted you’re not a skeptic – you’re a denier.

The original “hockey stick” graph has been replicated with and without tree ring proxies, using multiple different statistical methodologies, and by multiple independent teams of researchers. If you continue to believe that the “hockey stick” is a fraud you’re not a skeptic—youre a denier.

Climategate has been thoroughly investigated by the UK Parliament, the Oxburgh panel, the ICCER, Pennsylvania State University and the National Science Foundation (focused on Michael Mann), and NOAA, and yet the only allegation of misconduct that wasn’t completely debunked was that of Phil Jones and UEA not properly sharing data in response to FoI requests. If you continue to cling to thoroughly disproved allegations of misconduct coming from those emails youre not a skeptic – you’re a denier

While the rate of global warming (specifically global surface temperatures) has slowed recently, the actual surface temperatures are still within the 95% probability ranges for of the model projections. Those who claim that the recent slowdown in rising surface temperatures means climate models are all wrong may be simply ignorant of what the climate models say. But if you still claim that the models are all wrong even after being educated about model projections you’re not a skeptic – you’re a denier.
 
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I don't understand you, Bart. You tell me to lighten up when our world will collapse in 100 years.?.

You made an interesting argument. But, you lost me. You lost me with your demeanor.
 
I don't understand you, Bart. You tell me to lighten up when our world will collapse in 100 years.?.

You made an interesting argument. But, you lost me. You lost me with your demeanor.

Lighten up regarding my sarcasm. You've gotta have thick skin around here.

I am concerned about AGW and you should be too. My repartee in this thread may not reflect that concern accurately, but when faced with blatant denialism, what are you gonna do? I'd rather laugh than cry
 
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