Let's Talk About Sin

#626
#626
Septic said:
Did you really just ask that question?

Jeezus.
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Yep. I want proof that belief in God is illogical. I want that proof to be backed by peer reviewed, evidence that has withstood the rigors of extensive testing. Why is that so absurd? Someone says my belief is illogical. All I am asking for is proof.
 
#627
#627
Vol8188 said:
Proof my belief in Santa is illogical using irrefutable scientific evidence.
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Sorry buddy I didn't make the claim that your belief in Santa is illogical. YOU made the claim that my belief in God is illogical. The burden of proof is shifted to you, now prove your claim.
 
#628
#628
BigOrangeTrain said:
Yep. I want proof that belief in God is illogical. I want that proof to be backed by peer reviewed, evidence that has withstood the rigors of extensive testing. Why is that so absurd? Someone says my belief is illogical. All I am asking for is proof.
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I'm still waiting on your proof that Santa doesn't exist.

Until science can prove big foot, Santa, and the Easter Bunny don't exist....I'm going to pray to all three of them! My own trinity!
 
#629
#629
BigOrangeTrain said:
Sorry buddy I didn't make the claim that your belief in Santa is illogical. YOU made the claim that my belief in God is illogical. The burden of proof is shifted to you, now prove your claim.
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So you agree that my belief in Santa is in fact logical?
 
#630
#630
Roustabout said:
You can argue with me all you want. This is what scientist state. In fact this is often used as a response when creationists claim, "science can't prove evolution." It's a flawed statemet, which results in flawed responses.

It has been demonstrated in this thread, and the evolution one, that Darwinism is an interpretation (inference) of evidence, such as the fossil record, natural selection, etc. You cannot PROVE Darwinism in the sense you can prove 2+2=4. That doesn't mean there aren't persuasive arguments for the theory. But, that also doesn't mean that there are not alternative theories. Intelligent design follows the mulitple competing hyposthesis method, which Darwinism also utilizes.

For example, if someone states, "I have studied biological evolution, and I BELEIVE that Darwinism (descent with modification) best explains life on our planet," then I have no problem. I would simply ask, "have you considered......' In fact, I have several friends who are theistic evolutionists. I have a friend who is a college biology professor who is a devout Christian. There are many evolutionists who are open and honest about the problems with Darwinism. The openess and honesty dissapears from the Darwinist side is when evolution becomes a philosophical ideology. In other words, its proponents end up sounding just as delusional and unreasonable as the religious people they attack.

We witness the same type of problems from many Christians. They say things like, "evolution isn't true because the Bible says so." No, the Bible doesn't say so.
And so, you have two equally flawed positions arguing with each other, which is exactly what we see on this forum. And what gets lost in this is when people like myself attempt to actually engage in a civil discourse and have a challeging debate, but instead get attacked, and have to spend our time answering one line quips from antagonists.

When people say things like 'Darwinism is a fact' then I have a problem. It isn't a fact. Darwinism is an interpretion of facts. Fossil record, etc.
Or, when they say, 90% of scientist believe in evolution, therefore it's a fact. That is an ad populum fallacy, that is also undermined by equivocation. It tramples over the very definition of what constitutes a "fact."

So, I say all that GBOUT, because it seems you want to argue simply because a creationist, someone who holds a different worldview, has made the claim. When in fact it is the evolutionists who use the statement, "science doesn't prove anything," to defend themselves against bald assertions by creationists.
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Wow. This is a great post. I am a Christian and do not believe in evolution but it has nothing to do with the Bible saying its wrong because you're right, it doesn't say that. I don't believe in it because of the Anthropology and Biology courses I have taken. Again I must say this post is very well written with a lot of good information. Thank you.
 
#631
#631
Vol8188 said:
So you agree that my belief in Santa is in fact logical?
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An atheist dodges answering a request for proof of their claim. I would say I am shocked but its what I have come to expect.

Well there are Santa's at the mall at Christmas time so yeah your belief is logical :eek:lol::eek:lol:.
 
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#632
#632
BigOrangeTrain said:
An atheist dodges answering a request for proof of their claim. I would say I am shocked but its what I have come to expect.

Well there are Santa's at the mall at Christmas time so yeah your belief is logical :eek:lol::eek:lol:.
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I ask that because you clearly do not understand that it is impossible to prove that something does not exist. Try it. Prove the Easter bunny doesn't exist.

You can prove you've never seen him. You can prove noone has ever seen him, but does that mean he's not there? There are places people have never been.
 
#633
#633
#635
#635
I'm quite partial to the chupacabra myself. I think I'll start a chupacabra worshipping cult. Ahem, religion. Pardon me. :)
 
#636
#636
Vol8188 said:
Take your pick. Prove to me that a mythical creature doesn't exist?
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Apparently you didn't even read the paper. Figures. You really need to stop debating anything to do with religion because all you're going to do is lose. Just stick with football.
 
#637
#637
BigOrangeTrain said:
Apparently you didn't even read the paper. Figures. You really need to stop debating anything to do with religion because all you're going to do is lose. Just stick with football.
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I read about three paragraphs,I don't have time tonight. I will check it out tomorrow during my planning.
 
#640
#640
MercyPercy said:
I'm quite partial to the chupacabra myself. I think I'll start a chupacabra worshipping cult. Ahem, religion. Pardon me. :)
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But then you would consider the chupracabra as your God then you couldn't be an atheist anymore. Could you handle that? Doubtful. The thought of a supreme being terrifies you.
 
#644
#644
BigOrangeTrain said:
But then you would consider the chupracabra as your God then you couldn't be an atheist anymore. Could you handle that? Doubtful. The thought of a supreme being terrifies you.
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Actually, this brings up a good point about why I do continue to harass you good god fearing folk. The truth is, I'm intensely fascinated by the religious condition. The idea that so many people will disregard reality and put their faith in fiction really does fascinate me to no end. Of course, I have my own theories on what drives people towards religious belief.

1.) Indoctrination. You love your momma and daddy with all your heart, and think the world of them. The thought that they could have been wrong about god and lying to you as a child is unfathomable. You put your unwavering trust in them and the church they brought you to. This also involves peer pressure, as one would be less inclined to dissent when their entire community operates in faith. To publicly disagree with aspects of your faith in a faith centered community is a frightening prospect to many.

And yet, many people who went through the process of indoctrination come to their senses and leave the church. So, simple indoctrination cannot explain the attraction in total.

2.) Lack of education. The less one knows about science and the natural world they live in, the easier it is to dismiss their superiors and continue to surround themselves in a veil of ignorance. It's no surprise that the more educated and those with higher IQs are less religious. When one furthers their education, their understanding about the process of evolution, carbon dating, and other areas of science will often lead them to question their religious beliefs, as they are often not compatible with their new-found understanding.

And yet, I know people with no college education who left their beliefs behind. Obviously, further education is not the only thing that frees the mind from its religious restraints.

3.) Pride. For someone who spent their entire life believing in a deity, to have contradicting views threatening their way of life is immensely offensive. Not only is it offensive, but scary, because if these opposing views are correct, you would have to admit to yourself that you've been massively duped. Not just scammed by some online identity thief. You've been scammed to the very core of your being, and you've been on your knees worshiping something that doesn't exist. For someone with a large amount of pride, it must be nearly impossible to even consider the consequences of being wrong about this.

And yet, I still see prideful people who left the church later in life. So pride is not the linchpin of belief.

4.) Fear. This, in my humble opinion, is the strongest force in maintaining one's faith. There are two specific, yet intertwined fears. I think there is a certain type of person with a typecast mentality that these fears really effect. The first fear is the fear of nothing after death. The idea that we simply rot in the ground after we die is so scary to people who strive for meaning in their lives that they rationalize an afterlife. Once this fabrication is maintained, they can operate with much greater peace of mind. The second fear is the fear of hell, which inspires them to go to church, tithe, etc. While many would spin it another way, I'm particularly convinced that this fear is inherently selfish. They participate in their own Pascal's Wager, believing it's better to be safe than sorry. So instead of doing good things or being kind out of their own prerogative, they do it to secure their place in heaven and avoid the the punishment of hell. The people with this mentality, the overwhelming fear of death, are the ones who flock to god the most.

And that is why I believe fear is the greatest determining factor of many people of faith, though the first three things I also talked about certainly play a part as well.


I'm gonna get bashed for this post, but I wouldn't expect any less considering the majority of this forum is populated by believers. I'm not going to lie and say that I tried to put things as delicately as I could, or attempted to mitigate any patronizing that occurred. I'm just a person trying to understand a certain mindset belonging to a certain type of person. Peace. :hi:
 
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#645
#645
MercyPercy said:
Actually, this brings up a good point about why I do continue to harass you good god fearing folk. The truth is, I'm intensely fascinated by the religious condition. The idea that so many people will disregard reality and put their faith in fiction really does fascinate me to no end. Of course, I have my own theories on what drives people towards religious belief.

1.) Indoctrination. You love your momma and daddy with all your heart, and think the world of them. The thought that they could have been wrong about god and lying to you as a child is unfathomable. You put your unwavering trust in them and the church they brought you to. This also involves peer pressure, as one would be less inclined to dissent when their entire community operates in faith. To publicly disagree with aspects of your faith in a faith centered community is a frightening prospect to many.

And yet, many people who went through the process of indoctrination come to their senses and leave the church. So, simple indoctrination cannot explain the attraction in total.

2.) Lack of education. The less one knows about science and the natural world they live in, the easier it is to dismiss their superiors and continue to surround themselves in a veil of ignorance. It's no surprise that the more educated and those with higher IQs are less religious. When one furthers their education, their understanding about the process of evolution, carbon dating, and other areas of science will often lead them to question their religious beliefs, as they are often not compatible with their new-found understanding.

And yet, I know people with no college education who left their beliefs behind. Obviously, further education is not the only thing that frees the mind from its religious restraints.

3.) Pride. For someone who spent their entire life believing in a deity, to have contradicting views threatening their way of life is immensely offensive. Not only is it offensive, but scary, because if these opposing views are correct, you would have to admit to yourself that you've been massively duped. Not just scammed by some online identity thief. You've been scammed to the very core of your being, and you've been on your knees worshiping something that doesn't exist. For someone with a large amount of pride, it must be nearly impossible to even consider the consequences of being wrong about this.

And yet, I still see prideful people who left the church later in life. So pride is not the linchpin of belief.

4.) Fear. This, in my humble opinion, is the strongest force in maintaining one's faith. There are two specific, yet intertwined fears. I think there is a certain type of person with a typecast mentality that these fears really effect. The first fear is the fear of nothing after death. The idea that we simply rot in the ground after we die is so scary to people who strive for meaning in their lives that they rationalize an afterlife. Once this fabrication is maintained, they can operate with much greater peace of mind. The second fear is the fear of hell, which inspires them to go to church, tithe, etc. While many would spin it another way, I'm particularly convinced that this fear is inherently selfish. They participate in their own Pascal's Wager, believing it's better to be safe than sorry. So instead of doing good things or being kind out of their own prerogative, they do it to secure their place in heaven and avoid the the punishment of hell. The people with this mentality, the overwhelming fear of death, are the ones who flock to god the most.

And that is why I believe fear is the greatest determining factor of many people of faith, though the first three things I also talked about certainly play a part as well.


I'm gonna get bashed for this post, but I wouldn't expect any less considering the majority of this forum is populated by believers. I'm not going to lie and say that I tried to put things as delicately as I could, or attempted to mitigate any patronizing that occurred. I'm just a person trying to understand a certain mindset belonging to a certain type of person. Peace. :hi:
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:snoring:Did not read as it's way too long & boring.
 
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#646
#646
W.TN.Orange Blood said:
:snoring:Did not read as it's way too long & boring.
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i-dont-believe-you.gif
 
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