Let's Talk About Sin

#278
#278
OJ said:
Glad you pointed out the unnecessarily capitalizing. I didn't catch it when I first read it.
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It's just I didn't want 8188 to miss those words because sometimes he just skims over what is written & doesn't seem to understand the sentences of the words that are written to read.
 
#279
#279
DinkinFlicka said:
So am I an idiot, WTN?

I'm an honest, stand up guy who tries to do right by people, good or bad. I just don't bow to a god.

Are you more deserving of heaven than I am? I'd wager I do as much good for my fellow man as you do.
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You read what I had to say. You're free to choose what you are.
 
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#280
#280
W.TN.Orange Blood said:
It's just I didn't want 8188 to miss those words because sometimes he just skims over what is written & doesn't seem to understand the sentences of the words that are written to read.
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I really like your part about how all people are called. Have you ever answered the call of Allah or Buddha?
 
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#282
#282
DinkinFlicka said:
So am I an idiot, WTN?

I'm an honest, stand up guy who tries to do right by people, good or bad. I just don't bow to a god.

Are you more deserving of heaven than I am? I'd wager I do as much good for my fellow man as you do.
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It's not about how good or bad you are. It's all about what Christ has done for you and if you accept him.
 
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#283
#283
OJ said:
It's not about how good or bad you are. It's all about what Christ has done for you and if you accept him.
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Then that's just silly. Honestly, if any religion made sense to me, it would be either Buddhism or Hinduism. They are duty and karma based.

Christianity is a religion of obedience, which surprises me seeing as most of this forum is philosophically conservative.
 
#284
#284
Roustabout said:
I'm more concerned for people like 8188, who do hear and trample underfoot God's grace.

And Lex, perhaps those messengers have it wrong. Not saying they do, but that's a pretty broad brush you are painting with.
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Where is the breadth? There (used it right this time) are millions of people that have lived and died without hearing the name Jesus. Perhaps billions.

Yet people say that you have to accept Jesus as the Son of God to get to heaven/avoid hell.

Here is where Lexvol goes all tinfoil hat on you guys. Let's just suppose that there is a God, and that in order to spend eternity in his presence you must acknowledge your belief in His Son. Do people who have lived and died without hearing the name Jesus get to make such an acknowledgement in the afterlife? That would only seem fair…..

Now suppose you were raised a Muslim in Pakistan or a Hindu in India. You have been indoctrinated in a different belief system for your entire life. Is it fair that you have to make your decision while on earth, as opposed to the person who gets to make it in the afterlife?

I'm not trying to be broad or obtuse. I've stated that I'm a practicing Christian. I'm simply pointing out the issues that I struggled mightily with early in my journey.
 
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#285
#285
Vol8188 said:
1. How is "does truth matter" related to the closed minded nature of nearly all religious groups?
2. Your argument was that because Christianity is exclusive, you couldn't worship your god and be a Hindu. That's an extremely weak argument to try and claim that Hinduism is exclusive.
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1. not sure why you are asking this other than to derail the question. 'Does truth matter,' is essential when discussing whether something is TRUE of not. Seems fairly intuitive. The closed mindedness of a group of adherents has nothing to do with whether or not WHAT they believe is true or not. Again, a consequential fallacy. Whether I am exposed to one or 100 religions has nothing to do with whether one of those is actually legit or not.

2. Well, weak or not (and I'll beg to differ), you haven't falsified my claim. I stated that ALL religions make exclusive claims. I didn't say all make the SAME claims, or even equally exclusive claims. All I need to do to prove my point is demonstrate that there is some level of exclusive claim, which I have. Further, you are using the term inclusive in a very lose manner, when compared to how we are using the term exclusive. One is in the weak sense and the other strong.

FWIW, Christianity, in the weak sense, is inclusive and the text backs it up. "God is no respector of persons." Anyone who believes. Loved the world, etc., etc. But it does make exclusive claims as to how one becomes a believer.
 
#286
#286
DinkinFlicka said:
Then that's just silly. Honestly, if any religion made sense to me, it would be either Buddhism or Hinduism. They are duty and karma based.

Christianity is a religion of obedience, which surprises me seeing as most of this forum is philosophically conservative.
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Preached as a religion of obedience…in real practice it should be about grace and love.
 
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#288
#288
Lexvol said:
Where is the breadth? There (used it right this time) are millions of people that have lived and died without hearing the name Jesus. Perhaps billions.

Yet people say that you have to accept Jesus as the Son of God to get to heaven/avoid hell.

Here is where Lexvol goes all tinfoil hat on you guys. Let's just suppose that there is a God, and that in order to spend eternity in his presence you must acknowledge your belief in His Son. Do people who have lived and died without hearing the name Jesus get to make such an acknowledgement in the afterlife? That would only seem fair…..

Now suppose you were raised a Muslim in Pakistan or a Hindu in India. You have been indoctrinated in a different belief system for your entire life. Is it fair that you have to make your decision while on earth, as opposed to the person who gets to make it in the afterlife?

I'm not trying to be broad or obtuse. I've stated that I'm a practicing Christian. I'm simply pointing out the issues that I struggled mightily with early in my journey.
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Of course it is a struggle, because we lack omniscience.
To assume 'fair' means that we also need a perfect sense of justice. Do you believe that God is perfectly just? I wouldn't only say that God is just, but that justice is the very nature of His existence. And so, I trust that whoever He judges will be judged with an absolutely perfect justice. I am not omniscient, but I do know that the God who revealed these truths to me can do so for anyone. Take Ravi Zacharias for example. There is no reason, based on where he was born, that he should be a Christian. None. Yet, he is.

Neither myself or 8188 have anything but our own perspective. That's it.
You know it's interesting, to be saved, God isn't asking you to know everything. The Gospel is 100% personal. I can't be responsible for what 8188 believes. I have to look at what I know and make a decision based on that. And I can tell you in all sincerity that knowing what I know, I would be an absolute fool to not trust that the Gospel is the salvation of God for those who believe. And, I also know that God isn't going to send anyone to hell for something arbitrary. I don't see the Bible, despite its exclusive claims, teaching this. Especially when following a sensible hermaneutic.

I've provided 8188 several reasons to question the stability of his reasoning and the basis of his objections. I hope he'll humbly consider the shaky ground he is standing on, but you know what they say about pride.
It's like a man drowning in a sea of other drowning people. You throw him a life preserver and he curses you, because you haven't thrown the others one....,yet. In fact, he even denies you exist and sites these other drowning people as evidence. He could come on board and start helping reach those others, but he stubbornly stays in the water. Yep, God is certainly not going to force someone like that to spend eternity with him. There is a whay that seems right to a man, but in the end......
 
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#289
#289
DinkinFlicka said:
Then that's just silly. Honestly, if any religion made sense to me, it would be either Buddhism or Hinduism. They are duty and karma based.

Christianity is a religion of obedience, which surprises me seeing as most of this forum is philosophically conservative.
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Hmmmm? So you think people should get what they deserve?

Also, what do you mean by religion of obedience? Please define.
 
#290
#290
Roustabout said:
Of course it is a struggle, because we lack omniscience.
To assume 'fair' means that we also need a perfect sense of justice. Do you believe that God is perfectly just? I wouldn't only say that God is just, but that justice is the very nature of His existence. And so, I trust that whoever He judges will be judged with an absolutely perfect justice. I am not omniscient, but I do know that the God who revealed these truths to me can do so for anyone. Take Ravi Zacharias for example. There is no reason, based on where he was born, that he should be a Christian. None. Yet, he is.

Neither myself or 8188 have anything but our own perspective. That's it.
You know it's interesting, to be saved, God isn't asking you to know everything. The Gospel is 100% personal. I can't be responsible for what 8188 believes. I have to look at what I know and make a decision based on that. And I can tell you in all sincerity that knowing what I know, I would be an absolute fool to not trust that the Gospel is the salvation of God for those who believe. And, I also know that God isn't going to send anyone to hell for something arbitrary. I don't see the Bible, despite its exclusive claims, teaching this. Especially when following a sensible hermaneutic.

I've provided 8188 several reasons to question the stability of his reasoning and the basis of his objections. I hope he'll humbly consider the shaky ground he is standing on, but you know what they say about pride.
It's like a man drowning in a sea of other drowning people. You throw him a life preserver and he curses you, because you haven't thrown the others one....,yet. In fact, he even denies you exist and sites these other drowning people as evidence. He could come on board and start helping reach those others, but he stubbornly stays in the water. Yep, God is certainly not going to force someone like that to spend eternity with him. There is a whay that seems right to a man, but in the end......
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:good!: I'm so sorry that I can't "like" this post a 1K times.
 
#291
#291
Roustabout said:
1. not sure why you are asking this other than to derail the question. 'Does truth matter,' is essential when discussing whether something is TRUE of not. Seems fairly intuitive. The closed mindedness of a group of adherents has nothing to do with whether or not WHAT they believe is true or not. Again, a consequential fallacy. Whether I am exposed to one or 100 religions has nothing to do with whether one of those is actually legit or not.

2. Well, weak or not (and I'll beg to differ), you haven't falsified my claim. I stated that ALL religions make exclusive claims. I didn't say all make the SAME claims, or even equally exclusive claims. All I need to do to prove my point is demonstrate that there is some level of exclusive claim, which I have. Further, you are using the term inclusive in a very lose manner, when compared to how we are using the term exclusive. One is in the weak sense and the other strong.

FWIW, Christianity, in the weak sense, is inclusive and the text backs it up. "God is no respector of persons." Anyone who believes. Loved the world, etc., etc. But it does make exclusive claims as to how one becomes a believer.
Click to expand...

1. So your reasoning is the "because I'm right" defense. Lovely.

2. Because your exclusive religion prevents you from embracing an inclusive religion like Hinduism does not make hinduism exclusive. Hindus are allowed to freely worship any deity.
 
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#292
#292
Vol8188 said:
1. So your reasoning is the "because I'm right" defense. Lovely.

2. Because your exclusive religion prevents you from embracing an inclusive religion like Hinduism does not make hinduism exclusive. Hindus are allowed to freely worship any deity.
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You a believer of Hinduism? Because you like to talk about it often.
 
#293
#293
Vol8188 said:
1. So your reasoning is the "because I'm right" defense. Lovely.
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Please, let's stop with dirty tactics. If I am right, and I really beleive what I believe, then I would a sadistic monster if I didn't care what you believed. I do care, btw.

2. Because your exclusive religion prevents you from embracing an inclusive religion like Hinduism does not make hinduism exclusive. Hindus are allowed to freely worship any deity.
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I'm not going to argue with you on this. I made my point. You haven't falsified it. You are just arguing for arguings sake.

Peace
 
#295
#295
Roustabout said:
Please, let's stop with dirty tactics. If I am right, and I really beleive what I believe, then I would a sadistic monster if I didn't care what you believed. I do care, btw.


I'm not going to argue with you on this. I made my point. You haven't falsified it. You are just arguing for arguings sake.

Peace
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Your point was that because Christianity doesn't allow you to follow other religions, that you couldn't be a Hindu and a Christian, therefore Hinduism is exclusive.

That's truly the worst argument I've ever heard. All that proves is that Christianity is exclusive.
 
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#297
#297
It all comes back to the same argument. Civilized and educated human beings recognize morality and right/wrong without the need for religion to spell it out for them.

Apparently Christians need the "Ancient Guide On How Not To Be A Douche" or they'd be out stealing and murdering like barbarians.
 
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#298
#298
DinkinFlicka said:
Then that's just silly. Honestly, if any religion made sense to me, it would be either Buddhism or Hinduism. They are duty and karma based.

Christianity is a religion of obedience, which surprises me seeing as most of this forum is philosophically conservative.
Click to expand...

It does involve obedience but that's not what saves you.
 
#299
#299
MercyPercy said:
It all comes back to the same argument. Civilized and educated human beings recognize morality and right/wrong without the need for religion to spell it out for them.

Apparently Christians need the "Ancient Guide On How Not To Be A Douche" or they'd be out stealing and murdering like barbarians.
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Some people just like to be told how they should live, which, like dink said, is incredibly ironic considering most, if not all, on this board are against big government.

Apparently, some feel that if their life has no meaning, their life is not worth living.
 
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