Where did life begin? (Merged)

Do you believe we have a creator, aka "God"?

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#826
#826
Orange_Crush said:
He could move on men to write down predictions. Then He could fulfill those predictions. Then He could show up and perform miracles. Then He could predict that He would be killed, but that He would raise from the dead three days later. Then He could raise from the dead three days later. Then He could predict He'd come back, visible to all the world, like the sounding of a trumpet and that everyone would get on their knees and profess Him as God.

:)
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:good!: Yep, that's what will happen the way I understand it. Of course, you just condensed the Bible in a couple of short sentences.
 
#827
#827
Orange_Crush said:
I could help with that.

The laws of cause and effect state that every cause needs a sufficient effect. So, beginning of life would need a sufficient cause (probably more sufficient than, "by accident of course".) Those laws of causation began with the introduction of time itself, because without time, there are no causes and there are no effects. There is just "the infinite". So, whatever created the universe created time. If it created time, it is not a part of time. If it is not a part of time, it is uncaused.
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Are you assuming time is linear, and all effects have a cause?

Because time is like space....there is no "beginning" or "end". Time is not a series of moments passing from the future, to the present, and into the past. Everything just is.

If you get on a plane and fly to Denver, what happens? You can look out the window and see Denver. You didn't bring Denver into existence (save philosophical arguments aside). Denver was always there, you just got there by displacing yourself in space.

Time works the same way and change is just an illusion to us. Everything just is. You don't bring future events into existence anymore than you brought Denver into existence, they are always there. You just get there by displacing yourself in time.

That is the physics answer of it. Straight from Einstein.
 
#828
#828
rjd970 said:
Are you assuming time is linear, and all effects have a cause?

Because time is like space....there is no "beginning" or "end". Time is not a series of moments passing from the future, to the present, and into the past. Everything just is.

If you get on a plane and fly to Denver, what happens? You can look out the window and see Denver. You didn't bring Denver into existence (save philosophical arguments aside). Denver was always there, you just got there by displacing yourself in space.

Time works the same way and change is just an illusion to us. Everything just is. You don't bring future events into existence anymore than you brought Denver into existence, they are always there. You just get there by displacing yourself in time.

That is the physics answer of it. Straight from Einstein.
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That's a very interesting philosophy. If it's true, the scientific process that Einstein used to formulate it is useless. Is that really what you are driving at? Are you really ready to throw the laws of cause and effect out? Because you are throwing a lot more out with it.
 
#829
#829
Orange_Crush said:
That's a very interesting philosophy. If it's true, the scientific process that Einstein used to formulate it is useless. Is that really what you are driving at? Are you really ready to throw the laws of cause and effect out? Because you are throwing a lot more out with it.
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Space and Time are one in the same. Einstein was clear about that. That we know.

It does open a big can of worms on things like fate and if we really have free will or it all just is. The idea of multiple universes (the decision of me staying at my desk or getting up to get a drink would be two different parallel universes) is interesting. But in a nutshell, I think cause and effect on a time scale is not what it seems.
 
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#830
#830
rjd970 said:
Space and Time are one in the same. Einstein was clear about that. That we know.

It does open a big can of worms on things like fate and if we really have free will or it all just is. The idea of multiple universes (the decision of me staying at my desk or getting up to get a drink would be two different parallel universes) is interesting. But in a nutshell, I think cause and effect on a time scale is not what it seems.
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Then the entire scientific process just went out the window, no? If there are truly no sequence of "moments" then there are no causes, no effects and the scientific process is all some sort of illusion.
 
#831
#831
rjd970 said:
Space and Time are one in the same. Einstein was clear about that. That we know.

It does open a big can of worms on things like fate and if we really have free will or it all just is. The idea of multiple universes (the decision of me staying at my desk or getting up to get a drink would be two different parallel universes) is interesting. But in a nutshell, I think cause and effect on a time scale is not what it seems.
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Oh, and I agree that space and time are interrelated. I am getting at the sequence of time.
 
#832
#832
Orange_Crush said:
Then the entire scientific process just went out the window, no? If there are truly no sequence of "moments" then there are no causes, no effects and the scientific process is all some sort of illusion.
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Not at all. Cause/effect still very much work in our reality and has utility, it just isn't complete and it is erroneous to apply them to the universal questions.

The broader scientific concept of time no more proves our understanding of cause/effect wrong then Einstein proved Newton wrong. We all know Newton was right, just incomplete in the broader sense that Einstein showed. Newton's equations still work, just like cause/effect still work.
 
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#833
#833
Orange_Crush said:
Then the entire scientific process just went out the window, no? If there are truly no sequence of "moments" then there are no causes, no effects and the scientific process is all some sort of illusion.
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Meaning calculus doesn't exist.....
 
#838
#838
rjd970 said:
Not at all. Cause/effect still very much work in our reality and has utility, it just isn't complete and it is erroneous to apply them to the universal questions.

The broader scientific concept of time no more proves our understanding of cause/effect wrong then Einstein proved Newton wrong. We all know Newton was right, just incomplete in the broader sense that Einstein showed. Newton's equations still work, just like cause/effect still work.
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I promise I'm not being an ***. I have serious questions. If we're both talking about the same theory, then I remember seeing Morgan Freeman interview the main proponent of this theory of time. I seem to remember that this theory has not been widely accepted (which is fine). But I do remember having philosophical issues with its validity. I'm excited to be able to ask some questions of someone who understands it.

If we're talking about the same theory, then as I recall, there are no true causes and effects because there is no linear time. There is just an infinite number of eternal moments. Our minds (somehow) piece them together into the illusion of incremental, moment-by-moment experiences by some (here-to-for undiscovered) part of our brain.

If this is the case, and there is no true sequence, then how can cause and effect in fact be true?

If cause and effect is not, in fact, true but is instead only an illusion, then how did we evolve the bit of our brain that synchronizes the eternal moments into an illusion of incremental time? Because, obviously we did not traverse bits of time in a process of evolution.

Did we even evolve? If I am envisioning this correctly, then reality is not what we have historically experienced. Instead it is more like a 4-dimensional painting and all we're doing is seeing it one pixel at a time. So reality is just a static painting and nothing changes. There has been no progression, just a look at another piece of the same static.

So, tell me again how cause and effect still work? Tell me again how the scientific process still works when our perception is just an illusion? If it's all an illusion, then tell me again how a scientific process that tells us all is illusion can tell us truth?
 
#839
#839
82_VOL_83 said:
If there is a delta t, there is calculus. If there is no delta t, there is no calculus.
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In the larger view, that is probably correct.

That still doesn't change the fact that a value of delta t has utility. No one is claiming that calculus works on a larger scale. It's pretty clear that mathematics reaches a point where it breaks down in theoretical physics. That doesn't mean calculus is wrong or doesn't exist for our purposes.
 
#841
#841
rjd970 said:
In the larger view, that is probably correct.

That still doesn't change the fact that a value of delta t has utility. No one is claiming that calculus works on a larger scale. It's pretty clear that mathematics reaches a point where it breaks down in theoretical physics. That doesn't mean calculus is wrong or doesn't exist for our purposes.
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But if mathematics breaks down in theoretical physics, how can theoretical physics be proven?
 
#845
#845
Orange_Crush said:
I promise I'm not being an ***. I have serious questions. If we're both talking about the same theory, then I remember seeing Morgan Freeman interview the main proponent of this theory of time. I seem to remember that this theory has not been widely accepted (which is fine). But I do remember having philosophical issues with its validity. I'm excited to be able to ask some questions of someone who understands it.

If we're talking about the same theory, then as I recall, there are no true causes and effects because there is no linear time. There is just an infinite number of eternal moments. Our minds (somehow) piece them together into the illusion of incremental, moment-by-moment experiences by some (here-to-for undiscovered) part of our brain.

If this is the case, and there is no true sequence, then how can cause and effect in fact be true?

If cause and effect is not, in fact, true but is instead only an illusion, then how did we evolve the bit of our brain that synchronizes the eternal moments into an illusion of incremental time? Because, obviously we did not traverse bits of time in a process of evolution.

Did we even evolve? If I am envisioning this correctly, then reality is not what we have historically experienced. Instead it is more like a 4-dimensional painting and all we're doing is seeing it one pixel at a time. So reality is just a static painting and nothing changes. There has been no progression, just a look at another piece of the same static.

So, tell me again how cause and effect still work? Tell me again how the scientific process still works when our perception is just an illusion? If it's all an illusion, then tell me again how a scientific process that tells us all is illusion can tell us truth?
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I don't know what theory you are referring to.

However, two of my favorite Einstein quotes:

Reality is a special case.
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Newton, forgive me.
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I don't know how else to explain it better than I already have. We do know space and time are the same, so it makes sense they would work the same.

Cause/effect work in our reality. It isn't wrong and it doesn't mean it isn't happening for our purposes, but it is incomplete when taken into the larger context. Just like math reaches a point where it breaks down for understanding the larger picture of how the universe works, cause/effect does as well. That is directly related to our understanding of space and time. It doesn't mean that the math doesn't work and make sense to a point, and it doesn't mean that cause effect doesn't work to a point. Cause and effect work just fine for explaining our limited reality.
 
#846
#846
rjd970 said:
I don't know what theory you are referring to.

However, two of my favorite Einstein quotes:





I don't know how else to explain it better than I already have. We do know space and time are the same, so it makes sense they would work the same.

Cause/effect work in our reality. It isn't wrong and it doesn't mean it isn't happening for our purposes, but it is incomplete when taken into the larger context. Just like math reaches a point where it breaks down for understanding the larger picture of how the universe works, cause/effect does as well. That is directly related to our understanding of space and time. It doesn't mean that the math doesn't work and make sense to a point, and it doesn't mean that cause effect doesn't work to a point. Cause and effect work just fine for explaining our limited reality.
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Again, not to force the issue, but you're making some pretty big claims, and you really haven't explained it at all except to say that time and space are the same thing. I'll try to understand by asking for specific clarification.

(I'm really just trying to see if it really does just "make sense".

You said that time is not linear, and our perception of a linear time is just an illusion. Is this true? Because those are the philosophical ramifications I am speaking to. If that is the case then we are talking about the same theory.

Is linear time true or an illusion?
 
#847
#847
Orange_Crush said:
But if mathematics breaks down in theoretical physics, how can theoretical physics be proven?
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Not sure what you are asking.

Present day mathematical theory cannot adequately explain the singularity. The equations break down. Same with black holes, subatomic behaviors, unified theory, etc. All we can deduce is what may be happening to a point. As soon as we reach that event horizon of the black hole, so to speak, mathematics collapses and our limited reality of the universe no longer holds. That is why using our very limited reality-based philosophical thought (scientific, religious, metaphysical, etc) doesn't work and ends up in circular debates.
 
#848
#848
Orange_Crush said:
Again, not to force the issue, but you're making some pretty big claims, and you really haven't explained it at all except to say that time and space are the same thing. I'll try to understand by asking for specific clarification.

(I'm really just trying to see if it really does just "make sense".

You said that time is not linear, and our perception of a linear time is just an illusion. Is this true? Because those are the philosophical ramifications I am speaking to. If that is the case then we are talking about the same theory.

Is linear time true or an illusion?
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Does Newton's concept of space/time work?
 
#849
#849
rjd970 said:
Not sure what you are asking.

Present day mathematical theory cannot adequately explain the singularity. The equations break down. Same with black holes, subatomic behaviors, unified theory, etc. All we can deduce is what may be happening to a point. As soon as we reach that event horizon of the black hole, so to speak, mathematics collapses and our limited reality of the universe no longer holds. That is why using our very limited reality-based philosophical thought (scientific, religious, metaphysical, etc) doesn't work and ends up in circular debates.
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I agree. The way I envision it is that the singularity is basically the exit door for our universe and the laws of nature break down. So, in principle we are in agreement. However, that does not mean that the laws of cause and effect break up within our universe.

So, were you saying that time is not linear in the singularity? I did not perceive that from your argument. I perceived that you theory says that all time, everywhere is non-linear, and our experience of it is an illusion. Right here in this universe.
 
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