Another Priest Bites the Dust

[Gramps]

Subordination of any kind invalidates the trinity.

The Father is almighty. That's what the apostles believed and continued to believe after Jesus' death, a death which is impossible if he were almighty god, and to stay dead for three days at that.

Again you are wrong Bama.

The books of the Old Testament contain many passages about the Messiah—all prophecies Jesus Christ fulfilled. For instance, the crucifixion of Jesus was foretold in Psalm 22:16-18 approximately 1,000 years before Christ was born, long before this method of execution was even practiced.

Some Bible scholars suggest there are more than 300 prophetic Scriptures completed in the life of Jesus

 

[rjd970]

So you don't believe Jesus is the son of God?
He didn't die on the cross for our sins?
And he didn't resurrect ?

I think Jesus the man had a lot to say about social justice and compassion and we can take away many of his teachings as inherently good principles to live by, but I think all the divinity and supernatural stuff is nonsense and cheapens what he really did.

 

[PKT_VOL]

Again you are wrong Bama.

The books of the Old Testament contain many passages about the Messiah—all prophecies Jesus Christ fulfilled. For instance, the crucifixion of Jesus was foretold in Psalm 22:16-18 approximately 1,000 years before Christ was born, long before this method of execution was even practiced.

Some Bible scholars suggest there are more than 300 prophetic Scriptures completed in the life of Jesus

Your reaching.

 

[bamacheats]

Again you are wrong Bama.

The books of the Old Testament contain many passages about the Messiah—all prophecies Jesus Christ fulfilled. For instance, the crucifixion of Jesus was foretold in Psalm 22:16-18 approximately 1,000 years before Christ was born, long before this method of execution was even practiced.

Some Bible scholars suggest there are more than 300 prophetic Scriptures completed in the life of Jesus

I fully believe Jesus was executed. The fact that he was executed Roman style (impaled) rather than Jewish (stoned) adds weight to prophecy.

But an almighty God can not die.

 

[bamacheats]

So you don't believe Jesus is the son of God?
He didn't die on the cross for our sins?
And he didn't resurrect ?

Jesus said he's the Son of God, I'll take him at his word.

He's the first creation, almighty god has always existed.

History validates his death and resurrection. (the resurrection requires some circumstational evidence obviously)

 

[Gramps]

Your reaching.

Is this not what happened to Christ?

Psalm 22:16-18
New International Version (NIV)
16*Dogs*surround me,*a pack of villains encircles me;*they pierced my hands and my feet.
17*All my bones are on display;
people stare*and gloat over me.
18*They divide my clothes among them and cast lots*for my garment.

 

[Gramps]

I fully believe Jesus was executed. The fact that he was executed Roman style (impaled) rather than Jewish (stoned) adds weight to prophecy.

But an almighty God can not die.

Have you ever considered that the human body Christ was occupying died. Christ was the soul of that body. The body died, the soul did not.

 

[Obsessed]

Have you ever considered that the human body Christ was occupying died. Christ was the soul of that body. The body died, the soul did not.

Exactly. The body was the vessel used to spread the word. God gave his only son to die for our sins.

 

[Gramps]

Exactly. The body was the vessel used to spread the word. God gave his only son to die for our sins.

I enjoy these Bible discussions. Some of these guys can really challenge the scripture. It makes me do some serious thinking and digging at times.

 

[Obsessed]

I enjoy these Bible discussions. Some of these guys can really challenge the scripture. It makes me do some serious thinking and digging at times.

Yes it does. Makes my head hurt sometimes. I realize how much I have forgotten and need to get back to my reading

 

[VOLatile]

I enjoy these Bible discussions. Some of these guys can really challenge the scripture. It makes me do some serious thinking and digging at times.

Gotta give you props, Gramps. You're not like most people of faith that I know.

 

[PKT_VOL]

Jesus said he's the Son of God, I'll take him at his word.

He's the first creation, almighty god has always existed.

History validates his death and resurrection. (the resurrection requires some circumstational evidence obviously)

Really?

 

[PKT_VOL]

Is this not what happened to Christ?

Psalm 22:16-18
New International Version (NIV)
16*Dogs*surround me,*a pack of villains encircles me;*they pierced my hands and my feet.
17*All my bones are on display;
people stare*and gloat over me.
18*They divide my clothes among them and cast lots*for my garment.

I think it is a stretch, similar to Nostradamus.

 

[bamacheats]

Have you ever considered that the human body Christ was occupying died. Christ was the soul of that body. The body died, the soul did not.

I've researched that line of thought. I'm not buying that there's some "soul" that floats around after our "human vessel" dies.

Where were all these billions of "souls" when there were only millions of "human vessels" on earth?

Regardless, how was his soul dead for three days?

 

[bamacheats]

Really?

Why not?

 

[PKT_VOL]

Why not?

I would never take a person's word on the fact that they are the son of God. Jesus of Nazareth is not exactly the only person to claim such a thing.

I wouldn't say that history validates his resurrection.

 

[bamacheats]

I would never take a person's word on the fact that they are the son of God. Jesus of Nazareth is not exactly the only person to claim such a thing.

I wouldn't say that history validates his resurrection.

Jewish history claims an extravagant story of how Jesus of Nazareth was stolen from his tomb. Too convenient to chalk up as coincidence.

Jewish religious leaders at the time are on record nowhere as refuting his healings or resurrections.

 

[PKT_VOL]

Jewish history claims an extravagant story of how Jesus of Nazareth was stolen from his tomb. Too convenient to chalk up as coincidence.

Common. That is stretch Armstrong. Not sure about that story, but certainly not even remotely close to compelling me to believe that a resurrection (which goes against all known natural laws) happened 2000 years ago.

Jewish religious leaders at the time are on record nowhere as refuting his healings or resurrections.

Is this a serious retort?

The Jesus story just isn't original. It's like a horrible remake that got freakishly popular.

 

[therealUT]

Abraham did not worship a trinity. Islam worships the God of Abraham. Jews worship the God of Abraham. Modern Christians do not.

All due respect Gramps, you can't be quick to call out the Catholic Church for what they get wrong and blindly ignore the rest.

Catholic Church admits the trinity was an adopted pagan teaching making it "christian". It was for political reasons. That's historical fact, not religious teaching. Protestant religions left the church over various unscriptural teachings but kept the teaching of the trinity.

The dogma of the trinity is encompassed in the Credo. Way before making adaptations for pagans.

 

[therealUT]

Is not the doctrine as important as the dogma?

Not even close. The following comprise the main themes of the Church Dogma:

1. The Unity and Trinity of God
2. God the Creator
3. God the Redeemer
4. The Mother of the Redeemer (added in the 20th century)
5. God the Sanctifier
6. The Catholic Church
7. The Communion of Saints
8. The Sacraments
9. Baptism
10. Confirmation
11. Holy Eucharist
12. Penance
13. Holy Orders
14. Matrimony
15. Extreme Unction (Last Rites)
16. Death and the End of the World

Now, each of these sixteen themes has subarticles to explain it (which are dogmatic), but you will not find anything about Priestly celibacy there. And, as far as I am aware, each of these themes is expressed in the Nicene Creed, or the Credo, (325 AD) which, as the name suggests, was formulated at the same council which compiled the books of the bible. The Nicene Creed was the concise enumeration of Christian truths at the time; and, the books of the bible were selected in a manner which did not contradict or conflict with those truths.

The original Nicene Creed is as follows:

We believe in on God, the Father Almighty, Maker of all things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, begotten of the Father, Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father.
By whom all things were made.
Who for us men, and for our salvation, came down and was incarnate and was made man.
He suffered, and the third day he rose again, ascended into heaven;
From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
And in the Holy Ghost.

In 381 AD, at the Second Council, the credo was amended as follows:

We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds, Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father;
by whom all things were made;
who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary, and was made man;
he was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered, and was buried, and the third day he rose again, according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father,
from thence he shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead;
whose kingdom shall have no end.
And in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of life, who proceedeth from the Father, who with the Father and the Son together is worshiped and glorified, who spake by the prophets.
In one holy catholic and apostolic Church; we acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; we look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

Putting aside the immaculate conception of Mary, the only Catholic dogma that is not rooted in these two formulations of the Credo, is that which is rooted in the Apostle's Creed. Everything in the Apostle's Creed can be found in the writings of second, third, and fourth century Christians (much of what is in the Apostle's Creed is argued for explicitly by Augustine). The Apostle's Creed, as an expressed creed, dates to the end of the seventh and beginning of the eight century. What is noticeably different from the Nicene is the inclusion of forgiveness of sins separated from baptism, the death of Jesus, and the communion of saints.

I believe in God,
the Father almighty,
Creator of heaven and earth,
and in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died and was buried;
he descended into hell;
on the third day he rose again from the dead;
he ascended into heaven,
and is seated at the right hand of God the Father almighty;
from there he will come to judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic Church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and life everlasting. Amen

 

[therealUT]

Some Churches and some religions are big business. God isn't within 10 miles of them.

You do not believe this.

 

[BigOrangeCrush32]

Religion will get u nowhere but Hell.....only by asking God to save your soul will u b able to enter into heaven. You could b the most religious person on earth but if you haven't asked God to save your soul you cannot enter into the Kingdom of Heaven....

Bamacheats, u keep stating that Abraham did not follow the Trinity but believed in only one Deity.....wouldn't it be hard to follow a trinity when Jesus hadn't even been upon the earth yet to die for our sins.....so yes Abraham only believed in the Deity bc that was all he knew....I may be completely wrong bc I'll admit I haven't read up in a long time....but it just seems to make sense to me on this argument.

 

[bamacheats]

Common. That is stretch Armstrong. Not sure about that story, but certainly not even remotely close to compelling me to believe that a resurrection (which goes against all known natural laws) happened 2000 years ago.



Is this a serious retort?

The Jesus story just isn't original. It's like a horrible remake that got freakishly popular.

Jewish history is more intriguing than Catholic history. It's a project, but well worth it.

Surgeons and paramedics can revive persons clinically dead but a creator is powerless to do so?

 

[bamacheats]

Religion will get u nowhere but Hell.....only by asking God to save your soul will u b able to enter into heaven. You could b the most religious person on earth but if you haven't asked God to save your soul you cannot enter into the Kingdom of Heaven....

Bamacheats, u keep stating that Abraham did not follow the Trinity but believed in only one Deity.....wouldn't it be hard to follow a trinity when Jesus hadn't even been upon the earth yet to die for our sins.....so yes Abraham only believed in the Deity bc that was all he knew....I may be completely wrong bc I'll admit I haven't read up in a long time....but it just seems to make sense to me on this argument.

Historians are more reliable than religious leaders.

 

[therealUT]

Religion will get u nowhere but Hell.....only by asking God to save your soul will u b able to enter into heaven. You could b the most religious person on earth but if you haven't asked God to save your soul you cannot enter into the Kingdom of Heaven...

Ironic post is ironic. Sola fidelis is inherently a religious, and not an ethical or moral, concept. Yet, ethics and morality are focused on the good. Thus, one could, in theory, be good and yet not ask God to save their soul (in fact, if they were always good, why would they need to ask God to save their soul); yet, you would state that this person is excluded from heaven because they have not placed faith in God. However, to place faith in God is to act religiously. Yet, you assert that religion will get you nowhere but hell. Quite a predicament.

Bamacheats, u keep stating that Abraham did not follow the Trinity but believed in only one Deity.....wouldn't it be hard to follow a trinity when Jesus hadn't even been upon the earth yet to die for our sins.....so yes Abraham only believed in the Deity bc that was all he knew....I may be completely wrong bc I'll admit I haven't read up in a long time....but it just seems to make sense to me on this argument.

This is the wrong response and challenge to give to Bamacheats. I would suggest using the understanding of the trinity (God the Creator, God the judge, and God the spirit), and assert that Abraham did believe in the tripartite God of the Christians. According to the story, Abraham certainly believed that God created; he was spoken to through the spirit; and, in willingly going to sacrifice Isaac, he must have believed that God would judge him. The fact that he does not use the term "Jesus" is of no consequence.