No interest in CCM ball???

#51
#51
bleedingTNorange said:
And fwiw I didn't intend for this to turn into another Martin vs. Pearl thread, we've got enough of those. I was legitimately surprised by the numbers, and more by the fact that attendance is UP.
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I wasn't either...

I simply posted the attendance numbers from our friends at the NCAA.

Regardless of CCM's record and/or his accomplishments, I still pose the question of what exactly did CCM have to "turn around" in regards to Tennessee's basketball program???
 
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#52
#52
e-VOL-ution2013 said:
And if I recall correctly people were beginning to come out and question Pearl's player development abilities and coaching skills. Dare I bleaspheme the great Bruce Pearl???? :)
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It would also be worth noting that our quick ouster out of the tournament( pearls worst and last year) was aided by our genius ad that basically announced pearls firing the day we arrived at the tourney.
 
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#53
#53
patrick said:
I wasn't either...

I simply posted the attendance numbers from our friends at the NCAA.

Regardless of CCM's record and/or his accomplishments, I still pose the question of what exactly did CCM have to "turn around" in regards to Tennessee's basketball program???
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Like I said, i didn't intend for this to even bring up pearls name, but I should've known better. Therefore, I'm not going to answer your question in this thread.

If you'd like to bump one of the thousands of Martin vs. Pearl threads and ask it there I'd be glad to answer it, but I'm not going to here.

I'm beyond sick of everything have to be Pearl vs. Martin on this board.
 
#54
#54
volfan199 said:
Your points are all correct. However, you missed my second and third points. Martin's first team was far less talented and far less experienced than Pearl's last team. They missed the NCAA tournament, but they were never expected to go there in the first place. Now, if Tobias Harris and Scotty Hopson had been playing for Martin last year, I'd be right there with you. But they weren't. The drop off has been from the attrition that occurred at the end of the Pearl era, which was mostly beyond Martin's control. Martin has done a good job replenishing the talent, and they are going to have a really talented, experienced team next year. I know the results without Maymon have been disappointing this year, but they will improve (the Vol's SEC schedule has been frontloaded) and y'all are going to be excited about what's happening in this program this time next year.
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Many teams in the AA suffer through problems with attrition. About your supposed talent drop-off, I would venture to say that most UT fans if they were being honest never expected that Pearl's first few years/teams would have fared so well giving the relative "talent" or lack thereof when he took over. Not many people would have said that first team was "talented". It was only till later did people say that those players were talented because they began winning games - big games.

I am sure that I don't have to remind you that Lofton was not a highly valued recruit and neither was JJ Smith. That first team was made up of three star talent and one 4 star player (Wingate). JJ Smith was initially a walk-on.

CCM's first roster included 4 four star players and a 5 star player. I think if you compare rosters of each coaches first team without looking at the results you would have to agree that CCM's roster had more star power.
 
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#55
#55
bleedingTNorange said:
Like I said, i didn't intend for this to even bring up pearls name, but I should've known better. Therefore, I'm not going to answer your question in this thread.

If you'd like to bump one of the thousands of Martin vs. Pearl threads and ask it there I'd be glad to answer it, but I'm not going to here.

I'm beyond sick of everything have to be Pearl vs. Martin on this board.
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I think you are being a little touchy about my question.

Why does it bother you that the question is asked. This is not a comparison of Pearl to Martin.

It is simply a question of what needed to be turned around in the basketball program. Everyone says that CCM needs time to turn the program around - well I for one did not know that the program was headed in the wrong direction.

CBP was not fired because UT lost in the first round of NCAA tourney or because the Vols only won 19 games his last season - As you well know, he was FIRED BECAUSE HE LIED TO THE NCAA during an investigation and then admitted he lied to them. And for that lie, he alone is responsible!

A basketball program with the record listed below does not need to be turned around - it is going in the right freaking direction:

2005–2006 Tennessee 22–8 12–4 1st (East) NCAA 2nd Round
2006–2007 Tennessee 24–11 10–6 2nd (East) NCAA Sweet Sixteen
2007–2008 Tennessee 31–5 14–2 1st (East) NCAA Sweet Sixteen
2008–2009 Tennessee 21–13 10–6 T–1st (East) NCAA 1st Round
2009–2010 Tennessee 28–9 11–5 3rd (East) NCAA Elite Eight
2010–2011 Tennessee 19–15 8–8 5th (East) NCAA 1st Round
Tennessee: 145–61 65–31

Regardless of CCM's coaching abilities I do not believe that UT basketball was in need of being turned around.
 
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#56
#56
volfan199 said:
1. Pearl's final team was also his worst team. It racked up the worst home record since the Wade Houston Era (10-8), barely made the NCAA tournament, and was subsequently embarrassed in the first round.
2. The starting lineup for that team consisted of Melvin Goins, Scotty Hopson, Cameron Tatum, Tobias Harris, and Brian Williams. All of them save Tatum graduated or left at the end of the season.
3. Despite losing that core and being left an inexperienced if somewhat talented team, Martin finished the next year with the same overall record as Pearl's final team, finished higher in the SEC standings with a better SEC record, and was a win away from making the NCAA tournament. Further, in a span of 10 months he nabbed two 5 star recruits, Jarnell Stokes and Robert Hubbs.

Y'all may not remember, but everyone and their mother thought that Tennessee was going to go away and return back to mediocrity following Pearl's departure.
Regardless of what happens this year (and they can still make the tournament), Maymon's return next year assures that the Vols will be putting their most talented lineup on the floor since the 07-08 31 win season.
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Well said.
 
#57
#57
patrick said:
I think you are being a little touchy about my question.

Why does it bother you that the question is asked. This is not a comparison of Pearl to Martin.

It is simply a question of what needed to be turned around in the basketball program. Everyone says that CCM needs time to turn the program around - well I for one did not know that the program was headed in the wrong direction.

CBP was not fired because UT lost in the first round of NCAA tourney or because the Vols only won 19 games his last season - As you well know, he was FIRED BECAUSE HE LIED TO THE NCAA during an investigation and then admitted he lied to them. And for that lie, he alone is responsible!

A basketball program with the record listed below does not need to be turned around - it is going in the right freaking direction:

2005–2006 Tennessee 22–8 12–4 1st (East) NCAA 2nd Round
2006–2007 Tennessee 24–11 10–6 2nd (East) NCAA Sweet Sixteen
2007–2008 Tennessee 31–5 14–2 1st (East) NCAA Sweet Sixteen
2008–2009 Tennessee 21–13 10–6 T–1st (East) NCAA 1st Round
2009–2010 Tennessee 28–9 11–5 3rd (East) NCAA Elite Eight
2010–2011 Tennessee 19–15 8–8 5th (East) NCAA 1st Round
Tennessee: 145–61 65–31

Regardless of CCM's coaching abilities I do not believe that UT basketball was in need of being turned around.
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To quote those that feel Fulmer should've been fired, he was trending downward. I honestly don't think Pearl would've done much better last year than Martin did, minus he may have still had Hopson. They weren't horrible, but they certainly weren't playing as well as they had his first few years.

And Martin finished 2nd his first year with less talent than Pearl's first year.
 
#58
#58
patrick said:
I wasn't either...

I simply posted the attendance numbers from our friends at the NCAA.

Regardless of CCM's record and/or his accomplishments, I still pose the question of what exactly did CCM have to "turn around" in regards to Tennessee's basketball program???
Click to expand...

The program didn't have to be turned around, but practically the entire starting lineup had to be rebuilt. Golden was the only player that saw much time during Pearl's last year. Pearl didn't do his best at recruiting in his last couple of years and the last two players he did get didn't even make it into UT.

After Pearl was fired, Martin had to try and patch together a recruiting class while the NCAA was breathing down UT's neck. Not exactly the best scenario to keep things humming right along.
 
#59
#59
OrangeBalls said:
The program didn't have to be turned around, but practically the entire starting lineup had to be rebuilt. Golden was the only player that saw much time during Pearl's last year. Pearl didn't do his best at recruiting in his last couple of years and the last two players he did get didn't even make it into UT.

After Pearl was fired, Martin had to try and patch together a recruiting class while the NCAA was breathing down UT's neck. Not exactly the best scenario to keep things humming right along.
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You can't count pearls last signing class since.he wasn't here at signing day so there is no telling who he would have signed .....pearls last class of golden,mcrae, and Harris was pretty Dang solid but enough of this......its game day.......beat candy baby.
 
#60
#60
volbeast33 said:
You can't count pearls last signing class since.he wasn't here at signing day so there is no telling who he would have signed .....pearls last class of golden,mcrae, and Harris was pretty Dang solid but enough of this......its game day.......beat candy baby.
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He had Ware and Jones. That's it. Ware probably would've come if Pearl hadn't gotten fired, but Jones couldn't because of grades. Ware isn't exactly tearing it up at Louisville. That still leaves us with a PG problem. Who knows if Harris would've left but everyone knew he was likely a one and done player. Golden has been infuriating and McRae is finally the player everyone hoped he would be this year.

Agreed. Let's beat Candy's ass and send ol' Baldy home crying. If there's one insufferable prick, it's ol' Baldy.
 
#61
#61
I know the following statement is NOT accurate but I'll make it anyways because its only a feeling..... We do not treasure possessions the way we should as a basketball team. Under coach Pearl we seem to treasure each possession more... I know the team is doing all they can again it is just a feeling probably not the actual case...and I hope CCM wins a league championship and bigger so I'm not against Coach Martin... It's just frustrating sometimes for me to watch us turn the ball over so much...
 
#62
#62
tennrich1 said:
I know the following statement is NOT accurate but I'll make it anyways because its only a feeling..... We do not treasure possessions the way we should as a basketball team. Under coach Pearl we seem to treasure each possession more... I know the team is doing all they can again it is just a feeling probably not the actual case...and I hope CCM wins a league championship and bigger so I'm not against Coach Martin... It's just frustrating sometimes for me to watch us turn the ball over so much...
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This I will agree with. Part of the problem is that when Martin came in, he had guys that experienced success with one style, which makes it harder to change styles. When Pearl came in, he had guys that could either play the old style and continue to lose, or take their chances on the new style and see if they could be successful. They took the chance and were successful.
 
#63
#63
tennrich1 said:
I know the following statement is NOT accurate but I'll make it anyways because its only a feeling..... We do not treasure possessions the way we should as a basketball team. Under coach Pearl we seem to treasure each possession more... I know the team is doing all they can again it is just a feeling probably not the actual case...and I hope CCM wins a league championship and bigger so I'm not against Coach Martin... It's just frustrating sometimes for me to watch us turn the ball over so much...
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The major problem is not having an effective point guard to get us into our offense. We are having to play folks at point that are not point guards. Golden is our best option, but his play has gone south which hurts the offense tremendously. Otherwise, we also have problems getting to the basket because we have no consistent outside shooters, thus the passing lanes and driving lanes are seldom open. We try to run the motion offense and force passes that simply aren't there that results in numerous turnovers.
 
#64
#64
tennrich1 said:
I know the following statement is NOT accurate but I'll make it anyways because its only a feeling..... We do not treasure possessions the way we should as a basketball team. Under coach Pearl we seem to treasure each possession more... I know the team is doing all they can again it is just a feeling probably not the actual case...and I hope CCM wins a league championship and bigger so I'm not against Coach Martin... It's just frustrating sometimes for me to watch us turn the ball over so much...
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I don't know what team you were watching, but Pearl teams rarely valued the ball. They got a number of their points off steals and transition. If they played a team that could handle the ball and that forced them into a half court game they lost a lot of times.
 
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#66
#66
OrangeBalls said:
I don't know what team you were watching, but Pearl teams rarely valued the ball. They got a number of their points off steals and transition. If they played a team that could handle the ball and that forced them into a half court game they lost a lot of times.
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Does it really matter what you two are arguing about?

How many times did Pearl's teams get to go to the Dance?
Counting this year(we know it is a wash), How many times have Martin's teams gone to the Dance and at this rate, will ever get to the Dance? :hi:
 
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#68
#68
volinbama256 said:
Does it really matter what you two are arguing about?

How many times did Pearl's teams get to go to the Dance?
Counting this year(we know it is a wash), How many times have Martin's teams gone to the Dance and at this rate, will ever get to the Dance? :hi:
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Well, first, Martin has had one chance, and that was with Pearl's leftovers and his band aid recruits. Who knows what happens this year? If you can tell me, then I need for you to tell what to invest in the future.

It is all about guard play. The poster above mentions valuing possessions, and that goes back to who is handling the ball and setting up the offense. Martin was left with a roster which had very little experience (none started and most averaged less than 10 minutes a game). Then, Golden is a not a true PG, is slow, and makes poor decisions at times. The truth is that Pearl inherited CJ Watson, Jujuan Smith, and Chris Lofton. If you have solid guard play and shooting, you will win college games. If we just had a PG, this team would be so much better. I am not maing excuses because Martin failed at finding a solid PG this last class, which is his first real class. He needs to figure that out.

Next year's team will be good. But, it will be only as good as its PG. If Martin can find one, then it can be really good.
 
#69
#69
volinbama256 said:
Does it really matter what you two are arguing about?

How many times did Pearl's teams get to go to the Dance?
Counting this year(we know it is a wash), How many times have Martin's teams gone to the Dance and at this rate, will ever get to the Dance? :hi:
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This thread is about attendance. People have stated that UT didn't sell out games before Pearl arrived. They are wrong.

What does your point even have to do with the thread? Nothing.
 
#70
#70
volinbama256 said:
Does it really matter what you two are arguing about?

How many times did Pearl's teams get to go to the Dance?
Counting this year(we know it is a wash), How many times have Martin's teams gone to the Dance and at this rate, will ever get to the Dance? :hi:
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I've already used this argument once with somebody else who said that. Looks like I'll have to do it again.

Kelvin Sampson for Indiana made the tournament in each of the 2 years he coached there (I'm counting the year he was bought out in late February). Tom Crean, whose coaching no one can doubt now, missed the tournament in each of his first 3 years. And he didn't just miss... His teams, all 3 years, weren't even close to .500 overall. Why is this? Because Sampson crippled the program with violations, and all IU's talent left at the same time (DJ White graduated, Eric Gordon entered the draft early). Crean needed time to rebuild it.

So if, after Crean's first 3 years, you were to propose this same argument, would you be right? Who would be the better coach, Sampson or Crean? Sampson, right? So you see why it's a flawed argument?

It simply is not as simple as you seem to think. Just because CCM missed his first year, and probably his second, doesn't mean he won't make it in the future, or that he isn't as good as Pearl. Look no further than Tom Crean.
 
#71
#71
utfan72408 said:
I've already used this argument once with somebody else who said that. Looks like I'll have to do it again.

Kelvin Sampson for Indiana made the tournament in each of the 2 years he coached there (I'm counting the year he was bought out in late February). Tom Crean, whose coaching no one can doubt now, missed the tournament in each of his first 3 years. And he didn't just miss... His teams, all 3 years, weren't even close to .500 overall. Why is this? Because Sampson crippled the program with violations, and all IU's talent left at the same time (DJ White graduated, Eric Gordon entered the draft early). Crean needed time to rebuild it.

So if, after Crean's first 3 years, you were to propose this same argument, would you be right? Who would be the better coach, Sampson or Crean? Sampson, right? So you see why it's a flawed argument?

It simply is not as simple as you seem to think. Just because CCM missed his first year, and probably his second, doesn't mean he won't make it in the future, or that he isn't as good as Pearl. Look no further than Tom Crean.
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Wow. Nice comparison. Crean is a coach, too.
 
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#75
#75
OrangeBalls said:
He had Ware and Jones. That's it. Ware probably would've come if Pearl hadn't gotten fired, but Jones couldn't because of grades. Ware isn't exactly tearing it up at Louisville. That still leaves us with a PG problem. Who knows if Harris would've left but everyone knew he was likely a one and done player. Golden has been infuriating and McRae is finally the player everyone hoped he would be this year.

Agreed. Let's beat Candy's ass and send ol' Baldy home crying. If there's one insufferable prick, it's ol' Baldy.
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Dude really needs to shave the rest of that hair off. The Horse shoe look played out years ago. Learn to let it go when it won't grow.
 
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