Zimmerman - Martin: The facts and what is relevant

#1

therealUT

Rational Thought Allowed?
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#1
I apologize for starting another thread on this topic, however, I think it is important to ground this discussion, and to think through it reasonably.

Relevant Facts:
- On the night of February 26, 2012, George Zimmerman shot and killed Trayvon Martin
- There was only one weapon at the scene of the crime, that weapon belonged to George Zimmerman and was used to kill Trayvon Martin
- That night, George Zimmerman was on duty as the night-watchman for his neighborhood.
- George Zimmerman called the police to report a suspicious male in the neighborhood.
- The police instructed Zimmerman to cease his pursuit of the suspicious male. They also told Zimmerman that they would send someone to investigate.

Non-Relevant Facts:
- It is reported that Trayvon Martin bragged about breaking and entering homes and stealing jewelry.
- Trayvon Martin was found with both jewelry and a screwdriver one day at school.

Pertinent Legal Concepts:
- You are only authorized, by law, to use deadly force in an event in which, by a reasonable person standard, you feel that a person is threatening you in a way that you feel your life is in imminent danger.


In this forum, the pro-Zimmerman and anti-Zimmerman arguments appear to reduce to the following:
- Trayvon Martin has a history of robbing houses and, therefore, not only was Zimmerman was justified in approaching Martin but Martin deserved to be shot.
- Zimmerman was following Martin and, therefore, not only was Martin justified in physically assaulting Zimmerman but since Martin was justified, Zimmerman was not justified in resorting to deadly force.

Both of these arguments are BS.

- It is not illegal to follow someone in public (this is the defense that law enforcement uses all the time to argue for GPS trackers and surveillance).
- Law enforcement cannot legally, without the act of a judge, order one individual to stop following another individual on public land; they certainly cannot make decisions (without the act of a judge or legislature) for the owners of private lands on who can do what on their private land.
- Merely following someone is not synonymous with threatening their life and/or physical security.
- If Martin attacked Zimmerman because Zimmerman was following, Martin's attack was unjustified. It was not a case of self-defense.
- If Zimmerman attacked Martin because he thought Martin was being suspicious, Zimmerman's attack was not justified. It was not a case of self-defense.
- The punishment, under the law, for assault is not death; the punishment, according to reasonable persons, for assault is not death.
- The simple act of being assaulted does not give one the right to kill another. One must feel that their life is imminently at risk.
- If Zimmerman attacked Martin, Martin has the right to resort with the minimum force necessary to stop the attack.
- If Zimmerman was on top of Martin, Martin has the right to fight back. In doing so, Martin may end up on top of Zimmerman.
- Once Martin is on top of Zimmerman, he does not have the right to continually slam Zimmerman's head into the pavement.
- If a reasonable person would accede to the fact that having one's head slammed repeatedly against concrete is in fact a life threatening situation, then Zimmerman is justified in resorting to deadly force (if that is the only manner in which he can escape death).

Thus, we see that regardless of everything else, the question comes down to what was happening at the moment that Zimmerman fired. If Martin was slamming his head into the ground, then the jury ought to find Zimmerman not-guilty on the charge of murder/manslaughter.
 
#2
#2
Non-Relevant Facts:
- It is reported that Trayvon Martin bragged about breaking and entering homes and stealing jewelry.


Why is that not Relevant? If thats the case someone that would do that also prone to attack
 
#3
#3
Non-Relevant Facts:
- It is reported that Trayvon Martin bragged about breaking and entering homes and stealing jewelry.


Why is that not Relevant? If thats the case someone that would do that also prone to attack

it implies that Zim somehow knew, which he couldn't have, so it isn't relative to the mens rea side of the debate.
 
#4
#4
i think the key is escalation of force.

usually pulling a gun is not considered justified against an unarmed assailant.

if said assailant is a lot bigger however and is ground pounding one's head, the jury might think the gun was justified.

if said assailant was 110 pounds and 5' 6" like the photos, and running away while getting shot, not so much.
 
#5
#5
i think the key is escalation of force.

usually pulling a gun is not considered justified against an unarmed assailant.

if said assailant is a lot bigger however and is ground pounding one's head, the jury might think the gun was justified.

if said assailant was 110 pounds and 5' 6" like the photos, and running away while getting shot, not so much.

Martin was shot in the front of the chest from extremely close range.
 
#7
#7
- Once Martin is on top of Zimmerman, he does not have the right to continually slam Zimmerman's head into the pavement.

I agree with everything you said but this. I assume you've been in a scuffle or two before. Sometimes the other guy doesn't know when to quit. If a skinny guy like Martin is in a fist fight with a stocky individual like Zimm and he manages to get on top of him, why not knock him out?
 
#9
#9
I agree with everything you said but this. I assume you've been in a scuffle or two before. Sometimes the other guy doesn't know when to quit. If a skinny guy like Martin is in a fist fight with a stocky individual like Zimm and he manages to get on top of him, why not knock him out?

Blind rage/fury ought not be a defense under the law (I understand the 'temporary insanity' defense and responses to finding your wife with another man, but I think they are BS. If you kill someone who is not at that moment a threat to your life, you have unnecessarily and wrongfully caused their death.)

Moreover, even if you say that Martin is justified in going for the knockout to completely eliminate what he perceives as a threat, that does not mean that Zimmerman is not justified in resorting to deadly force to save his life.
 
#10
#10
Blind rage/fury ought not be a defense under the law (I understand the 'temporary insanity' defense and responses to finding your wife with another man, but I think they are BS. If you kill someone who is not at that moment a threat to your life, you have unnecessarily and wrongfully caused their death.)

Completely agree.

Moreover, even if you say that Martin is justified in going for the knockout to completely eliminate what he perceives as a threat, that does not mean that Zimmerman is not justified in resorting to deadly force to save his life.

There's obviously no definite answer on who should have done what. They were both terrified, and neither action is justified despite that. However, as someone built exactly like Martin, I'd take the opportunity to make the other guy kiss the curb until he stopped if I had it.
 
#11
#11
There's obviously no definite answer on who should have done what. They were both terrified, and neither action is justified despite that. However, as someone built exactly like Martin, I'd take the opportunity to make the other guy kiss the curb until he stopped if I had it.

Martin was 6', 160lb (2.2lbs per inch of height). While not big, he was not tiny. I was 6'3", 175lb (2.3lbs per inch of height) while I was in the Army (a bit bigger now because I do not run nearly as much), and I am confident that I could have done plenty to stop an attack without making the other guy "kiss the curb".
 
#12
#12
I met a student at Tennessee that had spent time in Brushy Mountain Penitentiary because he got on top of another person in a fight and continued in a rage to hit the person in the head. He did not smash the guy's head against any concrete; he just kept on hitting him with his fists, and he spent time in a maximum security prison for doing that.
 
#13
#13
Completely agree.



However, as someone built exactly like Martin, I'd take the opportunity to make the other guy kiss the curb until he stopped if I had it.

Martin was trying to make him kiss the curb..beat him to death etc

Thats what GOT HIM KILLED!!!!!!!!!
 
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#14
#14
I met a student at Tennessee that had spent time in Brushy Mountain Penitentiary because he got on top of another person in a fight and continued in a rage to hit the person in the head. He did not smash the guy's head against any concrete; he just kept on hitting him with his fists, and he spent time in a maximum security prison for doing that.

There was a guy in Texas just this year that caught a man IN THE ACT molesting his 11 year old daughter

jumped him and beat him to death in a fit of rage..NO CHARGES were filed!
 
#15
#15
There was a guy in Texas just this year that caught a man IN THE ACT molesting his 11 year old daughter

jumped him and beat him to death in a fit of rage..NO CHARGES were filed!

That is a very different situation. Zimmerman was not molesting Martin's 11 year old daughter. Zimmerman was observing Martin's behavior and reporting him to the police. If Martin had not been killed, he would have faced serious charges.
 
#16
#16
I believe that the police accept that Martin was shot while he was on top of Zimmerman lying on his back.

my attempt at facetiousness.

what happened seems fairly clear if what has been reported is accurate -- no telling what kind of spin will happen in the courtroom
 
#17
#17
Martin was 6', 160lb (2.2lbs per inch of height). While not big, he was not tiny. I was 6'3", 175lb (2.3lbs per inch of height) while I was in the Army (a bit bigger now because I do not run nearly as much), and I am confident that I could have done plenty to stop an attack without making the other guy "kiss the curb".

With all due respect, you have hand-to-hand combat training.
 
#20
#20
Attempting to discern what happened that night is pointless. We will never know. Dead men tell no tells.

If you want to set up various hypothetical situations of that night to explore the legal and moral implications of one's possible actions in Zimmerman's shoes, that is another thing entirely; would be fairly interesting to explore.
 
#22
#22
For the billionth time, no one "instructed" him to do anything.

Dispatcher: Are you following him?

Zimmerman: Yeah

Disp.: Okay, we don't need you to do that.

Zim: Okay


You are right, they did not even instruct him not to follow; they just let him know that it was unnecessary.
 
#23
#23
For the billionth time, no one "instructed" him to do anything.

who in their right mind would hire you?

You can read what therealUT posted above and still say no one "instructed" him to do anything!...LOL
 
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#24
#24
who in their right mind would hire you?

You can read what therealUT posted above and still say no one "instructed" him to do anything!...LOL

I don't think you quite understood that interaction. TRUT was agreeing with LG, who was correct in observing Zim was not "instructed" to do anything. He was told they (the dispatcher) didn't need him to continue following.

And TRUT, yeoman's work on trying to keep things buttoned up on what's relevant. :hi:
 
#25
#25
I don't think you quite understood that interaction. TRUT was agreeing with LG, who was correct in observing Zim was not "instructed" to do anything. He was told they (the dispatcher) didn't need him to continue following.

And TRUT, yeoman's work on trying to keep things buttoned up on what's relevant. :hi:

I do what I can, and I always have my lunch-pail packed.
 

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