Barnhart: Vols on right track says Dooley

[BeecherVol]

Saban has won 3 NCs at 2 different schools and short of him leaving he's gonna add more to that number.

Comparing Dooley to Saban (the best coach in college football right now) is not fair to Dooley. Hopefully for UTs sake he can be compared at some point. Right now theres nothing to compare.

 

[tvolsfan]

Saban won 9 his first year at Toledo, won the SEC his second year at LSU, and went 12-0 in the regular season his second season as Bama. In his 16 years as a college coach, he has never finished with a losing record. Are people really trying to compare him to a coach that has 1 winning season and 4 losing seasons? Are people really trying to compare Tennessee's football program to that of Michigan State?

 

[Orange_Crush]

Saban has won 3 NCs at 2 different schools and short of him leaving he's gonna add more to that number.

Comparing Dooley to Saban (the best coach in college football right now) is not fair to Dooley. Hopefully for UTs sake he can be compared at some point. Right now theres nothing to compare.

I don't think anyone in their right mind is saying that CDD is Sabanesque. I can only speak for myself, but it seems fair to compare a proven coach's record when he was in similar conditions to what CDD has had to deal with.

Even CNS could not do miracles at MSU. It proves that it takes time for a rebuild, and it's too soon to judge CDD's abilities based on results.

 

[Orange_Crush]

Saban won 9 his first year at Toledo, won the SEC his second year at LSU, and went 12-0 in the regular season his second season as Bama. In his 16 years as a college coach, he has never finished with a losing record. Are people really trying to compare him to a coach that has 1 winning season and 4 losing seasons? Are people really trying to compare Tennessee's football program to that of Michigan State?

Your post only goes to prove the point being made.

A coach of his quality couldn't turn MSU around overnight. Is it fair to judge CDD for not being able to turn UT around overnight?

It's really not that hard to understand.

Edit: And I agree. To compare UT's talent to MSU's, relevant to competition is not fair to CDD.

 

[tvolsfan]

Your post only goes to prove the point being made.

A coach of his quality couldn't turn MSU around overnight. Is it fair to judge CDD for not being able to turn UT around overnight?

It's really not that hard to understand.

How closely did you follow Michigan State in the 90's?

I'll admit I'm too young to remember, but I'm betting the situation at Michigan State was probably much harder to improve on than people are making it out to be.

 

[Spartacavolus]

Saban won 9 his first year at Toledo, won the SEC his second year at LSU, and went 12-0 in the regular season his second season as Bama. In his 16 years as a college coach, he has never finished with a losing record. Are people really trying to compare him to a coach that has 1 winning season and 4 losing seasons? Are people really trying to compare Tennessee's football program to that of Michigan State?

Hindsight man. Nobody thinks Dooley could accomplish what Saban has because there isn't really anybody who can or will.

The point is that there were a bunch a yahoos up in Michigan that thought they knew everything and wanted Saban gone after year 3 and 4 (I'm sure some of the best of the brightest wanted him gone after year 2) He sucked at Mich St for his first 4 years. Period. And he's one of the best ever.

 

[BeecherVol]

I don't think anyone in their right mind is saying that CDD is Sabanesque. I can only speak for myself, but it seems fair to compare a proven coach's record when he was in similar conditions to what CDD has had to deal with.

Even CNS could not do miracles at MSU. It proves that it takes time for a rebuild, and it's too soon to judge CDD's abilities based on results.

Im not sure it tells us anything of worth, every coach is different.
And you can make some judgments as the process goes along. I have mine so far. If Dooley goes 5-7 this year and gets fired at the end of the season he will not be getting fired for 1 bad year.

 

[Orange_Crush]

How closely did you follow Michigan State in the 90's?

I'll admit I'm too young to remember, but I'm betting the situation at Michigan State was probably much harder to improve on than people are making it out to be.

Harder to improve on than a program playing in the hardest conference in the NCAA, on its third coach in three years, with mass exoduses from the roster, after several recruiting year busts, with no Junior/Senior leadership, an NCAA investigation hanging over it, and the loss of the four most talented players on the team (Nukeese, JJ -- Hunter/Bray)?

I can't imagine MSU dealing with that. There's nothing to indicate they were. I did, however, give detailed stats about the quality of opponents, and CNS's record in those three years compared to opponent quality.

I am convinced he wouldn't have had any more success at UT the last 2 years than CDD has.

Rebuilding takes time. A historic look at the very coach you posted as the greatest in college football would bolster that fact.

 

[tvolsfan]

Harder to improve on than a program playing in the hardest conference in the NCAA, on its third coach in three years, with mass exoduses from the roster, after several recruiting year busts, with no Junior/Senior leadership, an NCAA investigation hanging over it, and the loss of the four most talented players on the team (Nukeese, JJ -- Hunter/Bray)?

He has coached at two other stops in the SEC and he won quickly in both places. Are you trying to say that Gerry Dinardo and Mike Shula are master program builders? And he did deal with an NCAA investigation at Bama (their second in a short time), and I'm pretty sure they got hit harder than we did.

I am convinced he wouldn't have had any more success at UT the last 2 years than CDD has.

You think Saban would be 11-14 and that he would have been dangerously close to 0-8 in SEC play his second year?

 

[GAVol]

Gold

You can dismiss it, but it's likely true. I don't care if it's Saban or if we dug up General Neyland, the third coach in 3 years is going to be hard pressed to win much for a couple of seasons. Maybe he would have won 13 or 14 instead of 11. I don't know. But we'd still be looking at a couple of weak seasons in 2010 and 2011.

 

[Orange_Crush]

Im not sure it tells us anything of worth, every coach is different.

Eh? What? That makes no sense. The greatest coach in college football sucked for four years when trying to rebuild a program. That doesn't tell us anything of worth about the time needed to rebuild a program? And MSU was arguably more stable than UT has been the last three years, while playing against lesser opponents.

Every coach is different? Yes. But rebuilds are hard. Saban proved that. I'm comparing the amount of time to rebuild a program; not coaches. Saban is in the conversation because he is a proven coach who inherited a similarly tough rebuild with similar results.

The point is that it takes time, and the initial results are not necessarily indicative of coaching talent.

And you can make some judgments as the process goes along.

Yes, you can. And one of those judgments should be: History shows that rebuilding a program takes time and you can't divorce results from the state of the program.

BTW: Did you get a look at Saban's record? Go look up some of the blow-out scores he had put up against him. "Judgments as the process goes on" can be misleading.

I have mine so far.

Granted. It always helps, though, when your judgments are based in rational appraisal as opposed to emotional response. (Not making a judgment about yours.)

If Dooley goes 5-7 this year and gets fired at the end of the season he will not be getting fired for 1 bad year.

Saban had four of them. He's the best thing since sliced bread.

:hi:

 

[tvolsfan]

You can dismiss it, but it's likely true. I don't care if it's Saban or if we dug up General Neyland, the third coach in 3 years is going to be hard pressed to win much for a couple of seasons. Maybe he would have won 13 or 14 instead of 11. I don't know. But we'd still be looking at a couple of weak seasons in 2010 and 2011.

Would Tennessee have won big? Of course not. Would Saban have gone under .500? I don't see that, either.

 

[GAVol]

Would Tennessee have won big? Of course not. Would Saban have gone under .500? I don't see that, either.

Probably not, but like I said, we're talking degrees of misery here. 2010 and 2011 were going to suck no matter what.

 

[tvolsfan]

Probably not, but like I said, we're talking degrees of misery here. 2010 and 2011 were going to suck no matter what.

That's fair, but I'm betting we would have seen progress instead of regresion.

 

[Orange_Crush]

He has coached at two other stops in the SEC and he won quickly in both places. Are you trying to say that Gerry Dinardo and Mike Shula are master program builders? And he did deal with an NCAA investigation at Bama (their second in a short time), and I'm pretty sure they got hit harder than we did.

Mike Shula was a great recruiter. Saban was left a lot of talent.

You think Saban would be 11-14 and that he would have been dangerously close to 0-8 in SEC play his second year?

Considering his record at MSU (which is the only place he's ever coached that comes anywhere near the dumpster fire UT has been), it is completely feasible to make that inference.

You may choose to think emotionally, and that's OK. But I posted the numbers. I should have posted the scores from his MSU games; it would only made matters look worse.

 

[Orange_Crush]

Would Tennessee have won big? Of course not. Would Saban have gone under .500? I don't see that, either.

Look at CNS's record in his second year at MSU, while going 6-6. Note specifically the level of competition his 6 wins were against. You don't think he could possibly have gone sub-.500 at UT?

With your "may not have won big" comment, you're inferring that he would have overcome a talent deficiency with coaching prowess. Is that what he did at MSU by failing to play up to competition there?

 

[Orange_Crush]

That's fair, but I'm betting we would have seen progress instead of regresion.

In his first two seasons at MSU, I would argue that CNS showed regression from year 1, to year two. W/Ls stayed the same, but competitiveness statistics dropped.

He went 2/6 against teams with winning records in 1995.

He went 1/6 against teams with winning records in 1996.

_________________________________

In 1995, Saban lost to:

Nebraska - 12-0-0
(Tied) Perdue - 4-6-1
Iowa - 8-4-0
Wisconsin - 4-5-2
Penn St - 9-3-0
LSU - 7-4-1 -- 26-45 blowout

wins:

Louisville - 7-4-0
BC - 4-8-0 (25-21 squeaker)
Illinois - 5-5-1
Minnesota - 3-8-0
Michigan - 9-4-0
Indiana - 2-9-0

Saban played 6 teams with a winning record, and lost to 4 of them.

The teams he beat were a combined: 30-38

______________________________

1996:

Nebraska - 11-2-0
Louisville - 5-6-0
Iowa - 9-3-0
Michigan - 8-4-0
Penn St - 11-2-0
Stanford - 7-5-0 -- 38-0 blowout

Wins:

Purdue - 3-8
Eastern Michigan - 3-8
Illinois - 2-9
Minnesota - 4-7
Wisconsin - 8-5
Indiana - 3-8

Of the six teams that he played who had winning records, he beat one of them.

The teams he beat were a combined: 23-45

 

[tvolsfan]

Mike Shula was a great recruiter. Saban was left a lot of talent.

Mike Shula dealt with the worst part of Alabama's issues, but let's not pretend he handed Saban the 2001 Canes or something like that.

Considering his record at MSU (which is the only place he's ever coached that comes anywhere near the dumpster fire UT has been), it is completely feasible to make that inference.

So it's reasonable to assume a guy who has never had a losing season in college would have lead Tennessee to it's worst two seasons back to back in 100 years? Yup, fair assumption.

You may choose to think emotionally, and that's OK. But I posted the numbers. I should have posted the scores from his MSU games; it would only made matters look worse.

Yeah, because Tennessee's scores make Dooley look really good.

 

[Orange_Crush]

Mike Shula dealt with the worst part of Alabama's issues, but let's not pretend he handed Saban the 2001 Canes or something like that.

Not saying CNS is a bad coach. I've actually acknowledged that he is a great coach. As a matter of fact, his being a great coach is a large part of what my argument hinges on.

So it's reasonable to assume a guy who has never had a losing season in college would have lead Tennessee to it's worst two seasons back to back in 100 years? Yup, fair assumption.

I will keep posting these until you acknowledge them. He went 6-6 his first two years while beating a total of three teams that had winning records. He also did not lose 2 of his best players in year 2. Now, go back and look at the quality of opponents that UT played. Look again at the quality he played going .500 his first two years at MSU. You won't even admit the possibility of him going sub-500 at UT the past 2 years. Really?

In 1995, Saban lost to:

Nebraska - 12-0-0
(Tied) Perdue - 4-6-1
Iowa - 8-4-0
Wisconsin - 4-5-2
Penn St - 9-3-0
LSU - 7-4-1 -- 26-45 blowout

wins:

Louisville - 7-4-0
BC - 4-8-0 (25-21 squeaker)
Illinois - 5-5-1
Minnesota - 3-8-0
Michigan - 9-4-0
Indiana - 2-9-0

Saban played 6 teams with a winning record, and lost to 4 of them.

The teams he beat were a combined: 30-38

______________________________

1996:

Nebraska - 11-2-0
Louisville - 5-6-0
Iowa - 9-3-0
Michigan - 8-4-0
Penn St - 11-2-0
Stanford - 7-5-0 -- 38-0 blowout

Wins:

Purdue - 3-8
Eastern Michigan - 3-8
Illinois - 2-9
Minnesota - 4-7
Wisconsin - 8-5
Indiana - 3-8

Of the six teams that he played who had winning records, he beat one of them.

The teams he beat were a combined: 23-45

Yeah, because Tennessee's scores make Dooley look really good.

Never said that. I said CNS looked like crap too in a similar rebuild situation. I said that it's been too soon to judge him as a coach. Is that really so hard to follow?

 

[tvolsfan]

He went 2/6 against teams with winning records in 1995.

He went 1/6 against teams with winning records in 1996.

So what you're saying is that in Saban's first two years at Michigan State, he beat more 1-A teams with winning records than Derek Dooley has beaten in 5 years? Yeah, I feel a lot better about Dooley now.

 

[BeecherVol]

Eh? What? That makes no sense. The greatest coach in college football sucked for four years when trying to rebuild a program. That doesn't tell us anything of worth about the time needed to rebuild a program? And MSU was arguably more stable than UT has been the last three years, while playing against lesser opponents.

Every coach is different? Yes. But rebuilds are hard. Saban proved that. I'm comparing the amount of time to rebuild a program; not coaches. Saban is in the conversation because he is a proven coach who inherited a similarly tough rebuild with similar results.

The point is that it takes time, and the initial results are not necessarily indicative of coaching talent.



Yes, you can. And one of those judgments should be: History shows that rebuilding a program takes time and you can't divorce results from the state of the program.

BTW: Did you get a look at Saban's record? Go look up some of the blow-out scores he had put up against him. "Judgments as the process goes on" can be misleading.



Granted. It always helps, though, when your judgments are based in rational appraisal as opposed to emotional response. (Not making a judgment about yours.)




Saban had four of them. He's the best thing since sliced bread.

:hi:

I think you missed my point. Saban dragging his feet at points during his career has nothing to do with what DD or any other coach will do. It doesnt mean Dooley will win 3 NCs and it doesnt mean he will get fired next winter either.

 

[Orange_Crush]

So what you're saying is that in Saban's first two years at Michigan State, he beat more 1-A teams with winning records than Derek Dooley has beaten in 5 years? Yeah, I feel a lot better about Dooley now.

Great:

An 8-5 Wisconsin, 7-4 Louisville, and 9-4 Michigan. Be still my beating heart... All while playing scrubs the majority of his games...

And you are ignoring the fact that CDD was in two separate rebuilding situations while forming that record, and has played two tougher schedules than CNS ever DREAMED about at MSU. Dooley had one three year basement rebuilding project, and is year two of the next. CNS had one four year basement rebuild.

CNS proved that it takes time. CDD has proven he needs time. Point still stands.

Anyway... Nice way to change the subject. Are you still going to deny the possibility that CNS may have gone sub-.500 the past two years at UT?

Did you notice the 4-point squeaker against a 4-8 BC team? Even without losing two of his best players, it was mighty close.

I wonder what would have happened in year one if he had replaced one of these:

Louisville - 7-4-0
BC - 4-8-0 (25-21 squeaker)
Illinois - 5-5-1
Minnesota - 3-8-0
Michigan - 9-4-0
Indiana - 2-9-0

With last year's Oregon.

Or these guys:

Purdue - 3-8
Eastern Michigan - 3-8
Illinois - 2-9
Minnesota - 4-7
Wisconsin - 8-5
Indiana - 3-8

were replaced by the SEC gauntlet UT walked through last year.

Still don't think it's possible?

 

[Orange_Crush]

I think you missed my point. Saban dragging his feet at points during his career has nothing to do with what DD or any other coach will do. It doesnt mean Dooley will win 3 NCs and it doesnt mean he will get fired next winter either.

:hi:

All I'm saying is that CNS inherited a similar situatin as CDD (arguably not as bad) and proved that the amount of time to start winning is not indicative of coaching ability.

It's just hard.

Again: :hi:

 

[BeecherVol]

:hi:

All I'm saying is that CNS inherited a similar situatin as CDD (arguably not as bad) and proved that the amount of time to start winning is not indicative of coaching ability.

It's just hard.

Again: :hi:

He'll have his chance this fall. He has enough pieces to prove worth. I hope he gets it done. He was given a great opportunity at a great place

 

[Orange_Crush]

He'll have his chance this fall. He has enough pieces to prove worth. I hope he gets it done. He was given a great opportunity at a great place

I agree on all points.